Page break mania in lists with images

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Niels
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Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

I am about to capitulate. Why are there so many issues with page breaks in printed layout and why does it take a lifetime to study to still not be able to understand the complexity...

I try everything to keep some numbered item together with its belonging picture and caption:
  • using one list for each step (+ option "continue numbering")
  • using one list item for each step
  • even using a div group inside
Using continued numbering with single lists PLUS div group.png
Still the elements which I want to be kept together break at undesired positions and leave undesired spaces on the next page.
In the example below I just want that step number two is moved to the next page to be kept together with its image. And there is certainly enough space on the next page for this:
Element breaks for no obvious reason.png
Who has any idea which settings clutter up and leave you no chance to keep elements appropriately together?
I would not assume that some generic style on a list can influence this, because I use a single list for each numbered step.
I would not assume that the option "continue numbering" should cause this.
I rather assume: if this is a bug, it will never be fixed and MadCap Flare is not fit enough to tackle simple layout scenarios in print :-)

To avoid any speculation:
In the examples above step 2 is structured exactly like step 1: It is also a single list and it is not grouped with any subsequent element that might cause this:
Using continued numbering with single lists PLUS div group - for each element.png
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Nita Beck
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Nita Beck »

You should not need to wrap the contents of the list item whose bits you want to keep together within a div. I suggest that you create a generic class called ".KeepWithNext" that you can use where needed. If your examples, you'd use it for the <p> that precedes the <p> containing the image.

Code: Select all

.KeepWithNext
{
    page-break-after: avoid;
}
You can apply this generic class to any bit of content that you want to keep together with the bit of content that follows it.

Additionally, a practice of mine is to contain the <p> that contains an image and the figure title that follows it in a div called div.Figure, which I define to avoid page breaks within; that'll keep the image and its title together.

Code: Select all

div.Figure
{
    page-break-inside: avoid;
}
Sometimes, I've even "genericized" that so that I can avoid page breaks inside different kinds of things:

Code: Select all

.KeepTogether
{
    page-break-inside: avoid;
}
FWIW, I think you can easily simplify your lists. You don't need to have each numbered step within a procedure be a list unto itself, necessitating that you then have to continue the numbering for steps 2 and on. Just put everything in one list.

I hope this helps.
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Niels
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

I will reply right now without further analysis. > Analysis already took so much time.
I introduced something like "avoid" in list items. But the consequence was inacceptable due to some list items which took too much space on a page.
Even if I "should not need to" do like I did, this does not explain what happens.
Am I now entitled to raise to Maximus, since there are no real solutions for my recent posts? :-D
Nita Beck
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Nita Beck »

Forgive me if the solutions I offered did not seem "real". I stand by them.

I don't wish to belabor the point, but I wonder if you have the impression that putting things into a div means that they will be kept together. They won't. To keep things together, you need to work with your CSS and set the various page-break attributes.
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

div group was suggested by https://www.helpdesign.eu/
originally to keep captions together with images

Even if I am not a maximus, I doubt by experience that you can set an optimal configuration via CSS.

Whatever the reason is, the only true print rendering system I can witness so far is LaTex.
Last edited by Niels on Thu May 30, 2019 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nita Beck
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Nita Beck »

Yes, I agree with that (regarding the link about divs), as I said above with how I use divs to keep paragraphs containing images and their figure titles together. But I have to make sure that I also have a CSS class for that div that says "page-break-inside: avoid." By your screenshots, you have more than just those two paragraphs inside a div. Even so, the mere wrapping of stuff in a div won't keep it together.
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

Thanks Nita for any advice. I still haven't found what I'm looking for.
U2
Last edited by Niels on Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NorthEast
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by NorthEast »

Flare's help has a topic about page breaks in lists here:
https://help.madcapsoftware.com/flare20 ... -Lists.htm

As Nita has suggested, to control page breaks in your content, you can use the standard CSS properties - page-break-before, page-break-after, page-break-inside.

Note that these are standard CSS properties that also work outside of Flare too, so they'll also work if you print out a web page from a browser; e.g. W3Schools page-break-inside.

All the page break properties will be set to auto by default, so if you want something to avoid page breaks then you have to set that property in your CSS.
Just putting content inside a div will not do anything, unless you also apply some CSS properties to that div.

So using Nita's example, you could apply the KeepTogether class on the li tag, and that will stop page breaks inside the list item (as it uses page-break-inside: avoid;).
Or you might use page-break-before: avoid; on the paragraph that contains the image. There are various ways to control the breaks.

The div in your example isn't really necessary because you could just apply the style to the li tag - you'd only need to use the div if you wanted multiple divs/elements inside the li tag, and wanted to control page breaks inside these separately.
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by doc_guy »

Niels, I sense that you are frustrated. Please don't take it out on Nita. She is a volunteer here, just like everybody else. If you want to take out your frustrations with product limitations, please contact MadCap directly. This is a peer-to-peer support forum. MadCap support does not regularly monitor the content of these forums. Venting here won't even been seen by MadCap.

To attempt to answer your question, in addition to what Dave and Nita have suggested, can you show us the code of your CSS regarding LI and whatever div class you are using inside your list item?

What I expect you need is something like this:

Code: Select all

li {
   page-break-inside:avoid;
}

div.CLASS-NAME-HERE {
    page-break-inside:avoid;
}
But if you can show us what your styles are for those elements, it will greatly help our ability to spot potential problems you are having.

I'd also be curious to know, if you have a moment, why it is necessary to put each step in a separate list. I'm sure you have a good reason, and I'd like to understand your use case. In general, I don't recommend this approach to my clients for three major reasons: First, it is harder to write the procedure, and requires many extra steps to create every step in the process. Second, it creates a lot of code bloat, increasing the size of your project and output. Third (and most importantly, IMHO) is it is not friendly to screen readers that rely on the structure of ordered lists to know when a procedure begins and ends, and what step you are at in the procedure. But like I said, you probably have a good reason for this. Maybe if you tell us what that is, we can either better understand your decision, or we might even be able to see a way around your issue and make it easier for you to create your content.

All the best,

-Paul
Paul Pehrson
My Blog

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Niels
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

Thanks for all advice so far and sorry for my frustration. The "div group" that we use was exactly designed as suggested for that purpose:
div.group
{
page-break-inside: avoid;
}
So we already use the suggested techniques without success.

As also implied, we do not want to set a global "inside avoid" on a list item, since this again causes undesired effects in other cases.

The main reasons for using numbered lists are:
  • We migrated 40 documents from MS Word and needed to find an easy way to map this to Flare in the initial migration.
  • There is a convention to have numbered items for any kind of step-by-step instructions.
  • For sure this convention was also introduced to provide the possibility that readers can refer to a specific step, e.g. when they report issues or need support.
Nita Beck
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Nita Beck »

Niels wrote:As also implied, we do not want to set a global "inside avoid" on a list item, since this again causes undesired effects in other cases.
That's why I suggested you might consider having several generic styles that you could apply only when/where needed. So if you have a particular list item that you want to keep from breaking across pages, you could apply the generic .KeepTogether style to that particular list item.
Niels wrote:The main reasons for using numbered lists are:
  • We migrated 40 documents from MS Word and needed to find an easy way to map this to Flare in the initial migration.
  • There is a convention to have numbered items for any kind of step-by-step instructions.
  • For sure this convention was also introduced to provide the possibility that readers can refer to a specific step, e.g. when they report issues or need support.
We're not wondering about your decision to use numbered (ordered) lists (OLs), at all. We agree with you on that. I would guess that most of us use ordered lists for step-by-step procedures than some other combination of HTML tags + CSS classes.

What we're wondering about is the decision to put each individual list item into its own OL, which necessitates having to continue the numbering for all the individual OLs after the first OL. We're wondering why you don't have a single OL in which are nested all of the steps (list items) in a given procedure; those list items would be numbered automatically and, according to Paul (whose judgment I trust), would better support screen readers by virtue of being recognized as a single step-by-step procedure.
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

Sorry for the misunderstanding again:
The reason in my example for using this strategy of single, separate numbered lists with the mode "continue" actually is just to find a workaround for the issue that this whole topic is about. The issue occurs in normal lists as well. In normal lists I could have expected that the reason is some kind of keep together that applies for items in normal lists based on some generic CSS for lists. But with separate lists I would not have expected this behavior at all - and that is what I find extremely frustrating. How can there be any concept causing this behavio(u)r if I have some clearly separate "items" (in my case two separate lists)? So I am already on a deep level of trying to find a workaround...
So if you have a particular list item that you want to keep from breaking across pages, you could apply the generic .KeepTogether style to that particular list item.
That's perfectly alright and clear. In this case indeed I am only looking for a local workaround like this. But it does still not work.
Last edited by Niels on Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ChoccieMuffin
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by ChoccieMuffin »

As I understand it, your lists are like this (separate ol for each numbered li) because that's how it comes in from Word. Not your fault, not Flare's fault, it's another place where Word doesn't play nicely. But I wonder why you haven't tidied up what you now have in Flare? Unless your content is managed and updated in Word and you have to keep importing from a Word document, it is highly advisable to do a bit of tidying up in Flare (including merging separate numbered lists, removing inline list formatting etc) so you can make best use of Flare.

Now back to your original problem.

I have noticed that having the following structure, with the generic .KeepWithNext applied to the intro paragraph and p.image (which has page-break-before:avoid) applied to the paragraph that contains the image, that "keep together" behaviour doesn't work ON THE FIRST LIST ITEM ONLY in a list. I reckon it's a bug but haven't got round to logging it.

So just to check, try merging your separate <ol>s and see whether the breaking behaviour works for all but the first numbered bullet. I bet you'll find it now works.

Code: Select all

<ol>
  <li>
    <p.KeepWithNext>Intro paragraph for first numbered bullet</p>
    <p.image><img>xxx.img</img></p
  </li>
  <li>
    <p.KeepWithNext>Intro paragraph for second numbered bullet</p>
    <p.image><img>xxx.img</img></p
  </li>
</ol>
And if it does, please also raise a bug. I just have, let's see if it's acknowledged as a bug. And if I get a workround I'll post it here.
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Niels
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

Thanks SchokoMuffin for any advice.
Both "rules/statements" do not apply. Check my explanation in a previous reply: I only introduced the strange construction of single lists with continued numbering to avoid the issue which this topic is all about. I can also confirm that the issue applies to all items, not only the first.
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by ChoccieMuffin »

Niels wrote:Thanks SchokoMuffin for any advice.
Both "rules/statements" do not apply. Check my explanation in a previous reply: I only introduced the strange construction of single lists with continued numbering to avoid the issue which this topic is all about. I can also confirm that the issue applies to all items, not only the first.
So you introduced the strange construction deliberately, trying to avoid the issue. Clearly it didn't work, so why don't you just give the suggested solution a try? You never know, we might have actually given you some suggestions that work...
In all of your list items, because they're each in a separate <ol>, they are ALL "first items", which as I said appears to be a bug. So join your lists and try again.
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

Which suggested solution exactly do you refer to?
Sorry if I cannot manage the suggested solutions anymore, I have 15 parallel issues going on in this forum. Actually I should only invest 4 hours per week in Flare issues but this has increased to 28 hours per week. My job is at stake. If I lose this forum, this is hardly of any concern to me right now.

Ok. Now I see. Until one month ago I was ready to do this kind of thing. Right now I am not really motivated in conducting tests on behalf of MadCap for free. Don't you realize that this is a strategy by them?
We are the ones to test their product. If we have an issue and report this to them, we also pay for platinum support at the same time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7OEvo-GjUg
ChoccieMuffin
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by ChoccieMuffin »

The suggested solution of having only one list, rather than lots of lists with just one list item.
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

The suggested solution was my starting point, where I first encountered the issue before trying to search for workarounds.
List-break issue.png
<body>
<h3 class="Kapitelsubsubheadline">Installing certificates<a name="_Ref435767965"></a><a name="_Toc523842474"></a><a name="_Ref345688294"></a></h3>
<p>Before running the Coordinator installer the certificates must be installed.</p>
<p>The complete certification path must be trusted i.e. if you use an official certificate from an official trusted root authority no more actions are required. If you use an own certificate, maybe additional certificate import actions have to be done (e.g. import the parent certificates of the own certificate, or for self-signed certificates import it additionally to trusted root authorities, for more details on generating self-signed certificates see chapter “Generating and Installing Self-signed Certificates Using Keytool” in <MadCap:xref href="Applicable Documents.htm#IMAInstallationManual9411" class="ParaTextOnly">[Installation Manual]</MadCap:xref>).</p>
<p>If Firefox is used, on client machines you must consider the workaround “<MadCap:xref href="Enable Firefox Access to OWA.htm#_Ref498430822" class="ParaTextOnly">Enable Firefox Access to OWA/MailApp (Certificate Trust Issue)</MadCap:xref>”.</p>
<p>To install a certificate do the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>
<p>Open the certificate console. Select the ImageMaster certificate from the list and click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Install PFX</span> from the context menu: </p>
<div class="group">
<p>
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 1: ">Certificate console – install PFX</p>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<p>The certificate import wizard appears. Select the local machine as store location and click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next</span> to proceed.</p>
<div class="group">
<p>
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_1.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 2: ">Certificate import wizard – store location</p>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<p>Specify the file you want to import and click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next</span>.</p>
<div class="group">
<p>
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_2.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 3: ">Certificate import wizard – certificate file </p>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<p>Enter the password for the private key and optionally specify import options. Click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next.</span></p>
<div class="group">
<p>
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_3.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 4: ">Certificate import wizard – private key password</p>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<p>Select the option <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Place all certificates </span> in the following store .</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Browse</span> and then select the personal certificate store from the list. </p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next</span>.</p>
<div class="group">
<p>
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_4.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 5: ">Certificate import wizard – certificate store</p>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<p>Complete the certificate import by clicking <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Finish</span>.</p>
<div class="group">
<p>
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_5.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 6: ">Certificate import wizard – confirm import</p>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<p>On success the following message appears: </p>
<div class="group">
<p>
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_6.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 7: ">Certificate import wizard – final screen</p>
</div>
</li>
</ol>
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ChoccieMuffin
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by ChoccieMuffin »

Niels wrote:The suggested solution was my starting point, where I first encountered the issue before trying to search for workarounds.
So try this:

In your stylesheet, do the following:
* Create a generic style ".KeepWithNext" that only has "page-break-after: avoid;"
* Create a <p> style specifically for paragraphs that contain images: "p.image {page-break-before: avoid;}"
* Apply the styles in your code, the first one to the paragraphs that introduce the images, the second to the paragraphs that contain the images. - I've edited the code you posted so you can give it a go. Bits I have added are in red. You will see also that I removed the divs, they're not necessary and just cause code bloat.
* When you have tried that, and the code below, let us know what happens.
* And then come back and say thank you. :)


<body>
<h3 class="Kapitelsubsubheadline">Installing certificates<a name="_Ref435767965"></a><a name="_Toc523842474"></a><a name="_Ref345688294"></a></h3>
<p>Before running the Coordinator installer the certificates must be installed.</p>
<p>The complete certification path must be trusted i.e. if you use an official certificate from an official trusted root authority no more actions are required. If you use an own certificate, maybe additional certificate import actions have to be done (e.g. import the parent certificates of the own certificate, or for self-signed certificates import it additionally to trusted root authorities, for more details on generating self-signed certificates see chapter “Generating and Installing Self-signed Certificates Using Keytool” in <MadCap:xref href="Applicable Documents.htm#IMAInstallationManual9411" class="ParaTextOnly">[Installation Manual]</MadCap:xref>).</p>
<p>If Firefox is used, on client machines you must consider the workaround “<MadCap:xref href="Enable Firefox Access to OWA.htm#_Ref498430822" class="ParaTextOnly">Enable Firefox Access to OWA/MailApp (Certificate Trust Issue)</MadCap:xref>”.</p>
<p>To install a certificate do the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>
<p class="KeepWithNext">Open the certificate console. Select the ImageMaster certificate from the list and click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Install PFX</span> from the context menu: </p>
<p class="image">
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 1: ">Certificate console – install PFX</p>
</li>
<li>
<p class="KeepWithNext">The certificate import wizard appears. Select the local machine as store location and click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next</span> to proceed.</p>
<p class="image">
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_1.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 2: ">Certificate import wizard – store location</p>
</li>
<li>
<p class="KeepWithNext">Specify the file you want to import and click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next</span>.</p>
<p class="image">
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_2.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 3: ">Certificate import wizard – certificate file </p>
</li>
<li>
<p class="KeepWithNext">Enter the password for the private key and optionally specify import options. Click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next.</span></p>
<p class="image">
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_3.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 4: ">Certificate import wizard – private key password</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Select the option <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Place all certificates </span> in the following store .</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Browse</span> and then select the personal certificate store from the list. </p>
</li>
<li>
<p class="KeepWithNext">Click <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Next</span>.</p>
<p class="image">
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_4.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 5: ">Certificate import wizard – certificate store</p>
</li>
<li>
<p class="KeepWithNext">Complete the certificate import by clicking <span class="FlietextHervorhebung">Finish</span>.</p>
<p class="image">
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_5.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 6: ">Certificate import wizard – confirm import</p>
</li>
<li>
<p class="KeepWithNext">On success the following message appears: </p>
<p class="image">
<img src="../_Resources/Images/Mail-SM/Installing Certificates_6.png" class="border" />
</p>
<p class="caption-en" MadCap:autonum="Figure 7: ">Certificate import wizard – final screen</p>
</li>
</ol>[/quote]
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by ChoccieMuffin »

Have you had any success with this, Niels?
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by Niels »

Chocie, I will give your scientific experiment a try. Still, even if it works, wouldn't you agree that this solution is some kind of overkill for the trivial use case that we are trying to accomplish?
I will let you know the result, when I have finished the negotiations of efficiency with my boss. After all, it depends on his budget. If he is willing to invest one more billion dollars in experiments then I'll be back ;-)
ChoccieMuffin
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Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by ChoccieMuffin »

Niels wrote:Chocie, I will give your scientific experiment a try. Still, even if it works, wouldn't you agree that this solution is some kind of overkill for the trivial use case that we are trying to accomplish?
I will let you know the result, when I have finished the negotiations of efficiency with my boss. After all, it depends on his budget. If he is willing to invest one more billion dollars in experiments then I'll be back ;-)
Actually, no I wouldn't agree. What I've done with your code is to pare it back to its simplest form (so taking out divs, separated lists etc) and try to manage page break behaviour with styles.

Good luck. I wouldn't be surprised if the FIRST list item doesn't work but the others do. As I say, I've raised a bug with Madcap about that (but still have to send them a project to demonstrate what's happening, which I'll do after the current release).
Started as a newbie with Flare 6.1, now using Flare 2023.
Report bugs at http://www.madcapsoftware.com/bugs/submit.aspx.
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ChoccieMuffin
Senior Propellus Maximus
Posts: 2630
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: Page break mania in lists with images

Post by ChoccieMuffin »

Well whaddya know - Phil at Tech Support has come up with a reason for this happening!

My ol definition includes the attribute "orphans: 1".

If I delete that line from my stylesheet, the first items in my lists that contain a screenshot NOW BEHAVE THEMSELVES!

Who knew orphans could be such awkward customers!

@Niels, can you give that a go as well and see if it fixes it for you too?
Started as a newbie with Flare 6.1, now using Flare 2023.
Report bugs at http://www.madcapsoftware.com/bugs/submit.aspx.
Request features at https://www.madcapsoftware.com/feedback ... quest.aspx
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