What do you think about the Ribbon?

[Rozzano]

How do people here feel about the Ribbon in Office 2007 and applying it to Flare? I know there is a competitor out there that uses that style for their authoring software... Also, it's my understanding that MS wants to persuade developers to use the Ribbon as main user interface (moreso for Windows 7 than Vista).

Personally, I like it as it is task-oriented. Using Word 2007, for example, all the features of Tables are visible. All the Reviewing features are visible. I would like this concept applied to Flare so as I'm working on, say, a numbered list all the appropriate would be available.

Do you think that MadCap should implement a Ribbon-style interface for future Flare releases (and other MC products)? Of course, not using the Ribbon interface would be an option that users could select if they want to use the familiar Office 2003 type layout.

What's the consensus out there?

[RamonS]

I used to use the ribbon in MSO2k7 and I found it to be distracting, counter-productive and more a toy than a tool. Please, no ribbons in MadCap products! Maybe a ribbon around the box that gets shipped to the 10,000th customer.

[Fedja]

Like it or not, the ribbon is the new black. Ok, so it's a bit on the brown side right now, but it will be the new black when MS decides to stop providing support for MSO2003. The fact of the matter is that Windows and MSO still dictate industry standards, and over time, loads of software vendors will have adopted the ribbon. Soon after, most of the regular Joes and Franks will be used to working with the ribbon, and you'll be like that geezer at the family Christmas party that brings your kids a videotape as a present.

I don't like it either to be honest, but I decided a while ago I'll stay ahead of the Joes and Franks. The price we pay.

[KevinDAmery]

M$ came up with the ribbon because they found out that most users didn't know how to find tools in Word 2003 and earlier--only experts could remember which menu they were in. So they moved everything into the ribbon: now, non-experts still don't know where to find things while experts are cursing at it saying "why did they move it and where the %$#% did they put it?!?"

World's richest software R&D team hard at work for you....

[RamonS]

Maybe Microsoft should have descoped all the garbage features that were added during the years. I really don't care any longer about MSO. I use OpenOffice.org which works fine, does pretty much the same, supports an internationally standardized, open, and XML based document format, and doesn't cost me a dime. I agree that some users will also have a hard time to find stuff in OOo, but at least one doesn't have to pay 300$ or more for that. What MS Office needs is a bulk load of bug fixes not some pointless GUI change. Too bad MadCap chooses to ignore ODF.

[KevinDAmery]

Returning to the OP's question, I'm not all that particular about whether things are in ribbons or static toolbars or some other metaphor. As long as the tools are quick / easy to access and intuitive to find, I'm happy. Help me do my job with a minimum of fuss is all I ask for.

[LTinker68]

Can you turn off the ribbon, like you can close the task pane in 2k3?

I haven't used MSO2k7 yet because I've heard bad things about it. I'm not too worried about Microsnot stopping support on MSO2k3 anytime soon because there are a lot of government agencies that are still using it. Some of them are downright refusing to "upgrade" to Vista.

[lacastle]

M$ came up with the ribbon because they found out that most users didn't know how to find tools in Word 2003 and earlier--only experts could remember which menu they were in."

Shouldn't we be considered "experts" if we use this tool practically every day? It's true that there are still things in Flare that I have not discovered (after using it for a year), but I don't think there's as many here are there are in Word.

I don't think Flare needs a ribbon because I don't really use the icons or menus that often anyway. I like the ribbon in Word, but even then, I use a lot more shortcuts so I don't have to switch between the mouse and keyboard often. One of the biggest drawbacks to the ribbon is how much screen space it takes up. It's hard enough trying to find enough room to view my topics (with the TOC and Style sections open too).

[Rozzano]

Can you turn off the ribbon, like you can close the task pane in 2k3?

As far as I know the Ribbon is Office 2007 cannot be turned off; there isn't a way to revert to Office 2003-type menus

Feel free to upgrade to XP, though

[Andrew]

The ribbon can't be turned off.

As for my evaluation of the ribbon:

It's a mixed bag. Some thing I really like -- for example, I think "operationalizing" icons (i.e., instead of clicking a single button to do a single thing, have the button's form better follow its use), and making the buttons overall larger and easier to read is good. The ribbon is actually more space-efficient than toolbars, as well, especially if you hide it and just use the shortcut bar for most things.

Its biggest shortcoming, IMHO, is lack of customizability, primarily because switching between tabs is actually extremely onerous. Yes, you can add tools to the shortcut bar, but there, they are tiny icons that are barely distinguishable. After some practice, you learn the location memory for them, but they are still small and easy to misclick. The ribbon itself is set in stone (unless you are developer and can create add-ins for the programs). It really, REALLY needs a tab where I can stack together at least most of my common tasks, in addition to the regular shortcut bar. I understand why that's difficult (the new tool-style buttons are not uniform in size or composition like the previous toolbars), but I think that is a major enough issue that it deserves some significant resources to address.

[forfear]

Until i see the ribbon in other commercial applications, i think the ribbon is just gonna make the third party Windows GUI Application developers some cash and a new UI windows control to sell to software houses, like madcap.

There is still much madcap is working on. I think they are continuing to work within the current dialogs, optimizing the user interaction and workflow, and the ribbon IMHO is not the solution. Remember Office 2007 is a very mature product, the features are very much set, the Ribbon just wraps it all up much better, and personnaly its at least something to look forward to sinc Office 2003 is already fairly stable and all that.

Interesting discussion nonetheless. Enjoyed this

[RamonS]

Like it or not, the ribbon is the new black. Ok, so it's a bit on the brown side right now, but it will be the new black when MS decides to stop providing support for MSO2003. The fact of the matter is that Windows and MSO still dictate industry standards, and over time, loads of software vendors will have adopted the ribbon. Soon after, most of the regular Joes and Franks will be used to working with the ribbon, and you'll be like that geezer at the family Christmas party that brings your kids a videotape as a present.

I don't like it either to be honest, but I decided a while ago I'll stay ahead of the Joes and Franks. The price we pay.

Sounds like that the ribbon is like ohhh
....writing every crap you can find to the registry - Microsoft hammered that into the heads of every developer and support teams around the globe quickly found out that this really sucks, especially when the user doesn't have admin access and entire sections of the registry are off limits. Now Microsoft recommends the exact opposite and sometimes even favors .ini files (OK, those are now in unreadable XML).
....using only binary executables that link to DLLs that need to be registered and loaded via reboot - the way how Java did it by simply copying files was a big NoNo, but then .NET came and now that is the way to do it (although many still don't make use of that for the easy of application deployment)
....writing everything to the My Documents folder - which wastes a whole lot of characters and really makes things difficult with a maximum 255 characters path/file name length; example: Flare.
....creating an OS that is 1/3rd slower than its predecessor although it runs on hardware twice as powerful; example: Vista and before that XP, which in the end both don't do much more than W2k anyway
....creating IE only "HTML" just to row back in the next version and potentially break all IE only sites
....and many more examples.

So now the ribbon is the "new black"? Give it a few years and they go back to the then new black, which is menus and tool bars. Maybe they make them come out from the side or something claiming that they got patents on that although others do that already today. I just don't get why everyone has to blindly follow the leader like the Germans in '33.

[NorthEast]

Microsoft are like the Third Reich? I've heard it all now.

[RamonS]

Maybe, but for sure many of its customers have blinders on.

[Fedja]

So now the ribbon is the "new black"? Give it a few years and they go back to the then new black, which is menus and tool bars. Maybe they make them come out from the side or something claiming that they got patents on that although others do that already today. I just don't get why everyone has to blindly follow the leader like the Germans in '33.

I don't follow the leader blindly, I follow him alertly. And the leader isn't MS, it's the market and the consumer. Maybe MS will go back to the old menus, maybe they'll move into more dynamic waters, maybe the ribbons are here to stay. Who cares really, they're here today and they are already dictating the trends.

Many don't like ribbons because they're new. Others don't like them because they're not customizable enough. The basic user dreads any change to his status quo. The advanced user appreciates changes that cater to his needs, but most UI changes are aimed at the rookies. It's a vicious circle and not one that's likely to stop with the next step in the evolution of the UI.

Either way, banner software is coming from other developers over the next year or so. Like it or not.

[forfear]

Never say never i guess..

Autocad 2009 does the Ribbon thing.

http://thecadgeek.com/blog/2008/02/13/i ... 09-ribbon/

[KevinDAmery]

... and judging by the comments, the natives aren't happy about it....

[Kleb]

I guess I'll chime in here and say I absolutely love the ribbon. Yes, if you're trying to get things done quick and you don't know where things are, it can be very frustrating (been there). But, once I got used to it, I've found it's much easier to use than having to get things in the menus.

And there have been many other things added that make life easier or nicer. I like the better default styles and the better colors used for highlighting and such.

Also, being able to preview a change by just mousing over the choices (like font selection, table styles, highlighting, margins, etc.) is a great addition. Saves a lot of mouse clicks.

As far as Flare , I think it would be a great step forward if they put the needed thought into it if they implement the Ribbon. The current user interface is, well, pretty good, but lacks things that one just expects to be there coming from MSOffice/Framemaker. At least, they'd be able to rethink the UI design and make it better.

One last thing, the Office 2007 interface is just much more pleasant to look at, and for me, that takes some of the stress out of the day to day work.

[SteveS]

... and judging by the comments, the natives aren't happy about it....

The trainer part of my CV tells me most people don't like change - some of us can make a living out of it.

I've avoided adding my thoughts until now, because I like the ribbon. I find Office 07 far better to use.

I'm suprised MS didn't offer an "Office Classic" option - the way you can revert to the traditional gray Windows theme in XP and Vista. When XP first came out a lot of people used "Window's Classic" but most desktops you see now are using XP's (or Vista's) native themes.

[Fedja]

I've avoided adding my thoughts until now, because I like the ribbon. I find Office 07 far better to use.

Eventually, we had to come to this grim realization. In the world of computers and software, voicing one's approval is almost a taboo. Complaints are rampant, and everyone who has one has the unstoppable urge to post it somewhere public. Someone who simply likes a software product feels like a communist in the McCarthy days and hides in his corner.

I could go around the office and ask people what they think about Windows Vista, and I'd have lists of complaints that would paint each coworker a traumatized victim of the horrid OS. However, most of them upgraded to it, and keep their XP installation CD rotting in the drawer. They like it enough to keep it, but not one of them would say that when asked.

Ribbons, like them or hate them, are a reality. I assume MS didn't include the "classic option" because the ribbons would go largely unused, simply because of the extensive difference in how they're used. The XP skin was a matter of finding it "ugly", while the ribbon does require some re-training.

In the end, the ribbon is much like the modern power steering in a car. Sure, every racer will tell you they want the good old direct steering, turning the wheel a full circle is such a waste of time, not to mention you can't really "feel the road". Every mechanic will tell you the old one was easier to service, and on paper, it did perform better and more accurately. You may even get some grandpa telling you that it feels "unnatural" the first time he spins the steering wheel with one finger, and that he's afraid he may unintentionally turn the car or turn it too hard. But can you really imagine driving without power steering today? Can you imagine the average driver out there doing it?

What I'm saying is, not all improvements are apparent at first glance. Whenever something changes drastically, the tendency is to shy away from it, and see every adaptation one has to make as additional strain. In the long run, evolution of the computer industry has consistently proved us wrong, and while some solutions weren't better than their predecessor, they usually led to further development based on them. Time will tell how the ribbon fares I guess.

I have an ancient office chair at home. Every chair I test in a store feels weird and uncomfortable, but my old chair makes my back hurt.

[forfear]

In the end, the ribbon is much like the modern power steering in a car. Sure, every racer will tell you they want the good old direct steering, turning the wheel a full circle is such a waste of time, not to mention you can't really "feel the road". Every mechanic will tell you the old one was easier to service, and on paper, it did perform better and more accurately. You may even get some grandpa telling you that it feels "unnatural" the first time he spins the steering wheel with one finger, and that he's afraid he may unintentionally turn the car or turn it too hard. But can you really imagine driving without power steering today? Can you imagine the average driver out there doing it?
I have an ancient office chair at home. Every chair I test in a store feels weird and uncomfortable, but my old chair makes my back hurt.

We are trying to get our clients to migrate to a new version of our system, Its radically redesigned in a sense and uses newer architecture, ui design and control placement. It runs slower, looks like a more standard windows application. Buttons are all located in standard locations and all that....
They hate it. the new thing is slow. The old one was better. We are just normal users, simple needs, and we don;t need all this other 'stuff'. Make it like the old one.

Sounds like RoboHelp and Flare ?

[RamonS]

I'm suprised MS didn't offer an "Office Classic" option - the way you can revert to the traditional gray Windows theme in XP and Vista. When XP first came out a lot of people used "Window's Classic" but most desktops you see now are using XP's (or Vista's) native themes.

Huh? Now what I experience. Most people I know instantly revert back to Classic, mainly because screen space is used better and performance is much better. Do you want to stuff work well or look good? And even "look good" is debatable. The XP/Vista standard looks remind me of the cheesy toys that the Dollar stores sell. That may be attractive to 6 year olds, but for someone who really wants to make good use of the resources available I can't see those new GUI styles fit. Same applies for the ribbon, it takes up way more space than the menu and with the help open the workspace gets degraded to a peep hole.
So the ribbon requires retraining - uhm, isn't that the number one argument against using OpenOffice.org? Yes, it does all the things we need, but the menus are a bit different, that will take three days of retraining for each employee. And what Kleb wrote about are features that have nothing to do with the ribbon.
What I love to see as an improvement in the Flare GUI is to have the scroll wheel work in the style list (in any list for that matter). The scroll wheel is a good invention that makes accessing listed items much quicker. But pulease, no ribbon! The ribbon is dumbest, most useless GUI "innovation" ever.

[Andrew]

Sounds like RoboHelp and Flare ?

I assume you meant that ironically -- while there are a couple of issues that Flare handles significantly worse than RoboHelp did (ease of getting to exactly the topic you need in your project, both to open it, and to link to it, for example), I find that, in general, the Flare UI is dramatically superior to the RoboHelp UI.

[MikeKatz]

I'm divided about the Ribbon.

I think it will work very well if one just takes the time to learn where everything is. As has been said before, many of us are very used to the old menus. Also, we just customised a toolbar to show our favorites, and that toolbar didn't move with us - I've sometimes struggled to find one or more commands.

However, what I can't understand, is how much real estate the Ribbon consumes on the screen. It leaves so little space for editing if you are working in landscape mode, which most people do. I am very surprised that with the explosive growth of widescreen monitors that you can't place the ribbon vertically instead of horizontally.

This doesn't affect me personally, because I have the luxury of working on two widescreen 24" monitors, both in portrait mode. In my setup, the Ribbon size is not an issue at all:

FlareForum01.jpg

[KevinDAmery]

To me, ultimately, it's the execution that matters. I don't mind the ribbon as a metaphor, but what I do mind is a) you can't customize it and b) M$ hasn't always put the tools you need in logical places (e.g. why isn't it possible to insert a TOC from the Insert tab of the ribbon? Wouldn't that make sense? Also, someone mentioned the style presets--why can't I put my corporate styles there? And why isn't there a style reset there?) And if something isn't in the ribbon, it's a PITA to find.