Flare 4 slower than Flare 3.1

[Gary Niemen]

Flare 4 seems to be slower than Flare 3.1 - more accurately, I would describe it as unresponsive. I click around the topics, expand a couple of folders and so on, and every third click or so there is a slight delay. It is the same with the command menus, when editing, and in the scroll menu. I have disabled intellisense and my computer has easily enough CPU power and RAM. It is worse when the scanner is doing things in the background but is still an issue when the scanner has stopped. I am finding it frustrating. Any ideas what is going on?

[Andrew]

Cursor movement is slightly slower, as well. I'm not sure why things seems just slightly slower (it's not a big problem in my case, but for someone with less computer power, it might be a serious issue).

[Gary Niemen]

Not a reply - just some more info.
I just monitored Task Manager while working with Flare and it is fluctuating between 2% and 17% CPU. Soon as I start using it, it flies up to around 17%. This seems way too much. Also, by the way, the project is a large one - about 2000 topics but I would hope that this wouldn't matter - perhaps just when there is background scanning.

[LTinker68]

I noticed yesterday that when I make a change to a document and save it, something flashes at the bottom of the XML Editor that makes me think Analyzer is running a quick scan to make sure there are no broken links or anything else it checks. My project isn't nearly as large as yours yet so it doesn't last more than a second or two, but if it has to do a quick scan after every topic save and you have that many topics, then it might take longer for you. And if you try to do something else while it's doing that scan, then it'll probably appear as if Flare isn't responsive, but that's because it's performing a scan.

[Rob Doupe]

Yep, I'm having the same problem - very slow reponse. CPU usage spikes up to over 60 per cent at times. I'm running a big project (860 topics, most of them hefty), but this same project wasn't a problem with Flare 3.1. And yes, I've selected Disable Collecting Phrases in the Analyzer options.

[Andrew]

My project is over 6000 topics, so I'm not really sure topic size is a consideration.

[LTinker68]

I noticed that the scan-after-save took a bit longer in a topic that had several screenshots and several toggler effects. And it occasionally seemed like the cursor was dragging when I was selecting the text to apply the toggler to. However, I also have Outlook, PowerPoint, Photoshop, SnagIt, and our program running (along with McAfee Enterprise which slows the whole system down at odd times), so I can't necessarily point it to Flare as being the problem. And it wasn't consistent, so either Flare is doing intermittent scans that coincided with me selecting text, or something else on my computer was temporarily taking some RAM away.

I didn't particularly notice any slowing down as I type text.

[Andrew]

It's not typing that is slower; it was more cursor movement with the keyboard (for example, I often Ctrl-Tab around in a sentence or paragraph, and that was slightly slower -- this is after it was finished scanning).

[Gary Niemen]

Interesting to read the various responses - clearly there is an issue. For me, saving is fine - it is everything else: scrolling, typing, selecting, and so on. It is typically, first action okay, second action okay, third action slow responsiveness. It is certainly a Flare 4 issue because a) my computer has easily enough RAM and power b) the project works fine in Flare 3.1 c) I can see Flare 4 grabbing CPU in Task Manager. I am going back to Flare 3.1 until there is a fix for this. Any help with this issue would be much appreciated.

[ed_d]

And I already found 3.1 a bit slow. This makes me hesitate to upgrade...

[LTinker68]

Everyone's situation (and computer and working environment) is different. I've noticed some slowing, but it's not enough to affect my work. Even when I did notice it, I had 7 or 8 other programs running at the same time, so I may not have even noticed it if I hadn't had that many programs running. And you don't have to "upgrade", per se -- you can run both versions on the same machine and compare the speeds to see if v4 is significantly slower enough to affect your work.

[Andrew]

Everyone's situation (and computer and working environment) is different. I've noticed some slowing, but it's not enough to affect my work.

Agreed -- on my fast computer, it isn't a problem. Slight slowing is not a major issue. For others, it might be different.

[Gary Niemen]

I am running Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU
T7500 @ 2.20 GHz
2.19 GHz, 3.50 GB of RAM
This should easily be enough - but Flare 4 is too slow for me to use. It hesitates every 3rd click. Flare 3.1 is fine.
There must be more to this issue. I don't understand.
By the way, I am running Windows XP Professional 2002 with SP3.

[RamonS]

I run Flare 4 on an AMD 64X2 4400+ @ 2.3 GHz with 2 GB of RAM and I find Flare 4 to perform as well as 3.1, even with all the Analyzer and IntelliSense stuff going on at the same time.
Two things come to mind, first is real-time virus scanning. Depending on how often Flare access a file, for example those in the Analyzer folder the virus scanner takes a look at what just happened. Some scanners are more intrusive than others. I use McAfee on mine.
Second thing is .NET runtime patch collections (called "service" pack 1) and patches for the patches, there are several. I have it patched to the full extent of Microsoft Update, maybe that makes a difference?

[Richard Ferrell]

I have seen issues if hyperthreading is not turned on, that applications can be slower. You would to check your computer configuation to see if this on.

[RamonS]

I've seen applications that are slowed down with hyperthreading on. HT is what Intel added to the single core chips faking a second CPU. The OS thinks there are two CPUs when in fact there is only one. Quite many applications are slowed down by this. As far as I know, dual cores do not have HT. Intel announced that the Nethalem 8 core chip will have HT again so that it can fake the OS to believe that 16 cores exist and can do 16 parallel threads. In defense of HT, if programmed right HT can increase performance by executing processes in those pieces of the CPU that indeed are there multiple times.
So, anyone with Intel CPUs may want to look into turning HT on or off and see if that makes any difference.

[i-tietz]

In our case it's about building a chm: It takes 2 to 4 times as long as with Flare 3.1. We have tried it on two different PCs with almost the same result.
We will check all the mentioned possible reasons as far as possible:
- virus software: our IT department won't let us switch it off ...
- the fact that we don't use SP2 for Windows: because it makes work with FM 7.2 impossible for us, that is no opetion either.
- the lack of hyperthreading: that will take months to change.
- switching off the analyzing bits in Flare 4: at last sth we can do.

I regularly (approx. once/month) run the defrag and clean up. So that cannot be the reason.
Anything else we have to look at?

[RamonS]

In our case it's about building a chm: It takes 2 to 4 times as long as with Flare 3.1. We have tried it on two different PCs with almost the same result.

How long does the compile take when you do a manual compile of the .hpj file in the output folder? That time should be identical to a project created from 3.1. If not, then it isn't in Flare's hands anymore unless the generated .hpj project files are drastically larger than in 3.1.

- virus software: our IT department won't let us switch it off ...

They don't have to switch it off entirely, they only have to exclude one folder (the project folder) on the local system for the duration of a test. They may not be able to do that at any time as it needs some IT resources, but if it isn't possible to exclude that one folder for an hour then I don't think IT is doing its job. The purpose of IT is to enable you and your coworkers to do your tasks as well as possible from a technology viewpoint. I don't think they do that with excessive paranoia. The PC can even be off the network during that test.

- the fact that we don't use SP2 for Windows: because it makes work with FM 7.2 impossible for us, that is no opetion either.

So you are running on XP SP1??? I don't get why your IT department allows for an outdated OS that has known security holes that were mainly patched with the service packs, but then rejects a request to have a folder excluded from virus scans for a simple test. I know, I'm barking up the wrong tree.

- the lack of hyperthreading: that will take months to change.

Honestly, I don't think it has anything to do with it. My experience is that hyperthreading makes most software run slower compared to a CPU of same design without HT, which is one of the main reasons why Intel dropped HT for the time being.

I regularly (approx. once/month) run the defrag and clean up. So that cannot be the reason.
Anything else we have to look at?

Which defrag tool do you use? Is it the totally useless tool that comes with Windows or one that works? I use JKDefrag which uses the Windows API, but does a tremendously better job than the standard Windows defrag.
What do you clean up? Temp files? Log files? IE/FF cache files? WUpdate backup files? Remove restore points?
Also, what make and model of hard drive is used? OK, now we go into the nitty gritty details....

[i-tietz]

How long does the compile take when you do a manual compile of the .hpj file in the output folder? That time should be identical to a project created from 3.1. If not, then it isn't in Flare's hands anymore unless the generated .hpj project files are drastically larger than in 3.1.

I don't have any hpj files in the project folders - nowhere. The last time I had those was with RoboHelp. Why would they be generated by Flare??

They don't have to switch it off entirely, they only have to exclude one folder (the project folder) on the local system for the duration of a test.

I changed the setting sof my virus software for my PC only, rebooted and compiled again - it didn't change anything.

So you are running on XP SP1??? I don't get why your IT department allows for an outdated OS that has known security holes that were mainly patched with the service packs,

SP 2 interferes with FM 7.2 because of the change in handling OLE objects: FM won't let us save files => we had to have SP2 deinstalled.

My experience is that hyperthreading makes most software run slower compared to a CPU of same design without HT, which is one of the main reasons why Intel dropped HT for the time being.

Then everything is fine, since our CPUs don't have anything like that.

Which defrag tool do you use? Is it the totally useless tool that comes with Windows or one that works?

That's the only one we have - so far it improved performance each time I executed it.

What do you clean up? Temp files? Log files? IE/FF cache files? WUpdate backup files? Remove restore points?
Also, what make and model of hard drive is used?

I do everything that is in the list - I check each checkbox of the Windows Disk Cleanup. And I use a batch to empty the temporary internet files and the temp folder.

[RamonS]

How long does the compile take when you do a manual compile of the .hpj file in the output folder? That time should be identical to a project created from 3.1. If not, then it isn't in Flare's hands anymore unless the generated .hpj project files are drastically larger than in 3.1.

I don't have any hpj files in the project folders - nowhere. The last time I had those was with RoboHelp. Why would they be generated by Flare??

The file is in the temporary folder in the output folder. Flare first creates a an HTMLHelp project and then tells the Microsoft HTMLHelp compiler to do its thing. Since CHM is a proprietary format that requires the Microsoft compiler to build the CHMs Flare first needs to create a project that the compiler can use.
So if for any reason the compile by the Microsoft compiler now takes forever it may give some more clues. If the compile time is the same for a 3.1 generated project and a 4.0 generated project then the issue is clearly and undoubtedly with Flare.
If the compile times are different then either the compiler that comes with Flare 4 is different or the project created is noticeably larger / more complex.

[i-tietz]

The file is in the temporary folder in the output folder.

No. Nothing there - in no project, whether I touched it with Flare 4 or not. No .hpj file can be found. Not by explorer ant not by total commander.
Other suggestions?

[i-tietz]

I have found a file called _Temp.hhp - maybe that's the one?
I opened it in the HTML Workshop and created a .chm file. Here's the result:

html-workshop-compile-test.gif

I did get messages though. They look like this for ALL .htm files:

Code: Select all

HHC3004: Warning: ida_tapi_nrformat.htm : The HTML tag "?xml version="1.0" encoding="Windows-1252"?" is not a valid HTML tag (it does not begin with an alphanumeric character).

[RamonS]

I have found a file called _Temp.hhp - maybe that's the one?
I opened it in the HTML Workshop and created a .chm file.

Yea, that's the one. The .hpj was the ending for the old RH projects, right? I got that mixed up. I don't do CHMs (they look too ugly), so this is from my fading memory.

I did get messages though. They look like this for ALL .htm files:

Code: Select all

HHC3004: Warning: ida_tapi_nrformat.htm : The HTML tag "?xml version="1.0" encoding="Windows-1252"?" is not a valid HTML tag (it does not begin with an alphanumeric character).

Uhm, for it to be a valid XML tag I miss some < and >...I guess the compiler misses that, too. Since it is a warning it will eventually compile (I think). You should see these warnings in the Flare status window as well. Could it just be that something gets goofed up in the HTML files and the compile takes so long because each time the HTMLHelp compiler throws a warning message? I'm just speculating here and run out of ideas.

[i-tietz]

Uhm, for it to be a valid XML tag I miss some < and >...I guess the compiler misses that, too. Since it is a warning it will eventually compile (I think). You should see these warnings in the Flare status window as well. Could it just be that something gets goofed up in the HTML files and the compile takes so long because each time the HTMLHelp compiler throws a warning message? I'm just speculating here and run out of ideas.

I get the same warnings with a .hhp file created by Flare 3.1 ... There still must be sth else.

@MadCappers:
The processing of the topics takes A LOT LONGER than in Flare 3.1. There you'll find the reason.

I think we'll just have to wait until the MadCappers have found whatever is interfering.
I already posted a bug report.

[Gary Niemen]

Two things come to mind, first is real-time virus scanning. Depending on how often Flare access a file, for example those in the Analyzer folder the virus scanner takes a look at what just happened. Some scanners are more intrusive than others. I use McAfee on mine.
Second thing is .NET runtime patch collections (called "service" pack 1) and patches for the patches, there are several. I have it patched to the full extent of Microsoft Update, maybe that makes a difference?

We have excluded our Flare folder from virus-check and checked the .NET service pack and patches. Hyperthreading is not relevant as we have dual processors on our computers.

Still no change - it is still, one click, two click, no response (for a second or two).

Any other ideas?