Why SQL Server Express?

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evanarsdall
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Why SQL Server Express?

Post by evanarsdall »

Can anyone explain to me why SQL Server Express is required to use the Analyzer?

As I described in a separate post, I am unable to install SSE on my machine. After spending the better part of a day trying, combing through MS KB articles, and trying again to no avail, I decided that there are more important things in life than installing SSE and using the Analyzer.

Does this mean that SSE will be required to run Flare 4, too? Why would you require a third-party product that creates a whole separate level of maintenance responsibility?

I hope that someday MadCap will get off the Microsoft bandwagon and start trying to make a cross-platform product. If SSE is required for Flare 4, I won't be able to upgrade.

Eddie
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by RussGuill »

evanarsdall wrote:If SSE is required for Flare 4, I won't be able to upgrade.
Eddie
I agree wholeheartedly. If SSE is required, it's going to add more overhead to an already overly intensive program. Sorry to be so brash but Flare uses more memory and processor any four other programs I have running (and I'm using Office 2007).
RamonS
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by RamonS »

evanarsdall wrote:Can anyone explain to me why SQL Server Express is required to use the Analyzer?
From what I understand, the results of a project are stored in a database for later use and comparison as well as interim storage of content that could be turned into snippets and such. I'm just guessing here, but that is what I would look at if I had to make an analyzer tool and need to store stuff.
Why it has to be SQL Express is beyond me. I think SQL Server is generally a usable piece of software that comes with nice tools, but in the end it is just a database engine, a big fat resource wasting proprietary difficult to use unintuitive not better than the alternatives database engine. I can't imaging Analyzer needing anything more than plain simple inserts, updates, deletes and selects, maybe a join and for some few things a stored procedure. One could use about anything for that.
evanarsdall wrote:As I described in a separate post, I am unable to install SSE on my machine. After spending the better part of a day trying, combing through MS KB articles, and trying again to no avail, I decided that there are more important things in life than installing SSE and using the Analyzer.
I agree, what would have been nice to is to have database independent mode available. There are several means to create db like structures in memory or to use XML files or something else. Sure, the performance goes down the toilet, but it works. I had my good share of problems with SQL Express, mainly because one of the bazillion prerequisites wasn't installed, or was installed, but was missing a service pack, a patch, or some other divine component. And try to clobber that all together under XP 64bit - no fun.
evanarsdall wrote:Does this mean that SSE will be required to run Flare 4, too? Why would you require a third-party product that creates a whole separate level of maintenance responsibility?
I critize MadCap frequently and question their design decisions, but I really don't think that they would be that removed from reality to demand SQL Express to be mandatory for Flare 4.
Not only does it add a separate level of maintenance responsibility, but there is also no real support for it. Other db vendors give their basic product away as well, but still offer full support for it. I think what MadCap has to do is integrate SQL Express into the Analyzer (and Lingo) install and start owning the installation process. Customers need someone to call and have them get the ducks in the row, pushing that off to Microsoft who gives a crap about SQL Express users isn't cutting it. I also think that SQL Express is a bad choice when it comes to desktop database engines. SQL Express is way to fat and underperforming on a desktop system. Something like SQLite would probably be better.
evanarsdall wrote:I hope that someday MadCap will get off the Microsoft bandwagon and start trying to make a cross-platform product. If SSE is required for Flare 4, I won't be able to upgrade.
You are preaching to the choir, but MadCap's developers and project managers aren't singing. I can only speculate that when MadCap started as a new company they needed cash. Investors know a lot about money and typically nothing about what that is the companies do that they invest in. Investors still claim they do and want to know what and how and which and why. It is the same as with IBM for decades, buying Microsoft doesn't get you fired and investors probably aren't warm and comfy when you tell them you use some open-source stuff or Java or such. Becoming a .NET showcase company and throwing something out the door a year after founding MadCap made the sufficient waves and pleased the investors as now there was something to charge money for and bring in revenue. The choking hold of Microsoft on companies like MadCap is seen in the weird decision to support formats like OOXML and XPS in future releases, but continue to ignore PDF and ODF. Additionally, one has to say that Microsoft's development tools are the best, rivaled maybe by Delphi, but nice IDEs are what developers want, even when the technology behind it is questionable at best.
And therein lies the assumed reason why MadCap decided to go Microsoft only all the way. I don't think they necessarily love that dependency, but it gets them into a position where people actually want to buy their product. And one has to say that MadCap did a lot of things right, because otherwise they wouldn't have been that successful. A change away from .NET/Microsoft will only come when there is compelling reason to do so. Mainly when Microsoft pulls the plug on .NET the same way as they did with VB6 a few years ago, when the Apple / Linux desktop market share becomes large enough so that it would be bad for business to ignore it, or when the Flare development on the current code base hits its limits and a total redesign is needed. While I think that Microsoft will kill off .NET in a few years I don't think any of the other reasons will come our way soon. And therefore a lot of things have to force MadCap to rethink a fundamental platform decision - unless we get on their nerves enough with our constant bickering. :P
I think MadCap will serve its customers much better when there are more choices for third party components, such as the database engine or source control system used.
evanarsdall
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by evanarsdall »

Ramon, you and I certainly share the same opinion. Let me first say that I am an admirer--a fan--even a champion--of MadCap and what it has accomplished in a relatively short period of time. For a young tool, Flare has a rich feature set.

That said, if MadCap tells me in the future that SSE or another third-party tool is required to use Flare, then unless they (MadCap) take responsibility for supporting that tool, I will stop using Flare. The decision to require a third-party tool to use a MadCap tool--even if the third-party tool is free--is an egregious error in judgment. It is not fair to customers.

You hit the nail on the head when you said "Not only does it add a separate level of maintenance responsibility, but there is also no real support for it." If I pay for a MadCap product, I don't want to be forced to install some quirky Microsoft product--even a free one--that comes with no guaranteed support. I don't want to have to comb through Microsoft's befuddling website (just try and figure out the download choices at http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/express/bb410792.aspx) to make that product work. And then there are the updates and upgrades. Will product A work with product B? That's not my concern, nor should it be.

You're probably right that "the results of a project are stored in a database for later use and comparison as well as interim storage of content that could be turned into snippets and such." But honestly, I don't care. Build that capability into the product! Plenty of the best commercial products have an underlying database.

And regarding this: "There are several means to create db like structures in memory or to use XML files or something else." YES! Remember the "fully built in XML" selling point?

I happen to work with a large, federal client specializing in health research, and we use a healthy mix of OTS and open-source tools. My role is that of information developer for print and online content. Although I have written plenty of scripts and am comfortable using command-line tools for processing XML output, I have no desire to be a DBA or software developer. When I visited the SQL Server Express "help forums," they were clearly geared to developers who are knee-deep in Microsoft's development platforms, so I immediately felt alienated. The more I see MadCap clinging to Microsoft, I feel similarly alienated.
Eddie
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by Richard Ferrell »

We are looking at ways to replace SQL Express in the next version of Analyzer and Flare v4. Hopefully if we are able to do this, it will make it easier for everyone.
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RamonS
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by RamonS »

Not "hopefully we will be able to do it", do it and don't release anything until you're done.
booey
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by booey »

As far as Analyzer is concerned (and we bought three copies) I dont see the need for a database at all. Its over engineered from what should be, that is a simple project based add on that finds the basic things that have got stuffed up and tells you where they are so you can fix them. Things like broken links, undefined conditions etc. are important All the rest of the snippets suggestions, how many unused css styles and such are meaningless in the real world.

Its an example of the 80:20 rule in kitchen sink software. 80% of the user only use 20% of the functionality (and usually the saame 20%). But otherwise its a neat product and i recomend it to everyone. Though really it should be part of Flare, not an extra module.
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by jrg »

+1 on what booey said. pretty much sums it up for me.
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by doc_guy »

booey wrote:Its over engineered from what should be, that is a simple project based add on that finds the basic things that have got stuffed up and tells you where they are so you can fix them. Things like broken links, undefined conditions etc. are important All the rest of the snippets suggestions, how many unused css styles and such are meaningless in the real world.
I guess I'm in the 20% then, because for me the magic of Analyzer is in the snippet suggestions, the undefined conditions, the undefined styles, and the ability to fix these across the entire project in a matter of 2 minutes, instead of 10 hours.

If you just want a broken-link checker, that's fine. But there is a lot of power in what Analyzer can do for your projects... especially imported projects (say from Framemaker) where you need to know what styles you had in your old project that aren't defined in your new project.

So, unused CSS styles, to use your example, may be meaningless in your world, but they are certainly very helpful in mine, which appears quite real to me. (And my name is not Truman Burbank, as far as I know.)
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forfear
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by forfear »

Like Paul,
i use the unused styles feature in Analyzer. its extremely useful to get rid of stylesheet bloat especially after importing projects.
If you submit your bug feedback request here, the more likely it'll get fixed or included in a future release
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RamonS
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by RamonS »

....or even in the stock Flare CSS. I think the use of the SQL Server Compact is the best solution short of ditching MSSQL and using a real database.
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Re: Why SQL Server Express?

Post by forfear »

I guess with a commercial standard database versus a proprietary 'CPD' file,
you can actually do a whole lot more with greater efficiency

I like the
- historical stats
and the built-in Variable Suggestions feature
is infinitely worth having than to get teams of writers to learn regular expressions, pipes, literals, string procs or using a professional third party Find-Replace text editor.


If it saves teams time, improves quality, helps improve documentation processes, i say by all means.
If you submit your bug feedback request here, the more likely it'll get fixed or included in a future release
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