Can I replace the Flare XML editor

[amberlink]

Am I being completely heretical and asking something I shouldn't?

I'm finding the XML editor really hard to use. I finally figured out how to change my UL styles (EVEN THOUGH IN WORD THEY WERE BULLETED LIST STYLES) to LI styles and assign the correct list type.

What I don't understand is why wasn't it more obvious?

I think I'm coming up against the dreaded, "designed by developers" in a closed vacuum IDE.

Or is it just growing/learning pains?

[doc_guy]

If your question is "can I have Flare load a separate tool in place of the XML editor inside the IDE?" the answer is No.

Can you use another editor? Sure the files are text files. If you don't mess up the structure, then I suppose the files should work when Flare builds the target.

I think that you will find that learning how to use the XML editor, as well as other parts of the Flare interface, while having a steep learning curve, is a good time investment. I really like the XML editor. I find it a powerful tool.

As for your <ul> to <li> problem, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you were seeing. Why would you change your <ul> styles to <li> styles? <ul> is the parent style, which is required for each list. While <li> is a list item, it is only valid if it is a child of a <ul> or an <ol>.

But I've also not tried Word imports, because as I said in another thread, I much prefer the work flow of editing in Flare.

[amberlink]

I had bulleted lists in Word, they came across indented and without bullets, so I'm having to reapply all my bullets even though my styles that came across "appear" in the CSS to have circle bullet items.

In the output they don't.

I understand that learning the tool is part of the process, but seriously, I didn't realize that it would involve so MUCH work. I don't feel like I'm learning anything more than a new IDE and not anything NEW in XML. If I already am comfortable with XML spy or something like that why not let me use it as my XML editor? I have no problem learning a new tool, just not one that just for the sake of being different is being difficult.

[doc_guy]

The problem with another tool is that Flare isn't writing only standard XHTML into your source documents. There are several MadCap-specific tags that you wouldn't get to use if you weren't using the Flare XML editor (variables, snippets, conditions, cross references, to name a few).

[doc_guy]

... Well, now that I think about it, I suppose if MadCap published the Flare topic DTD or schema, then you would be able to validate against the schema, and still see all the elements that are valid elements in the Flare editor. And I suppose that it would theoretically be possible to purchase a separate XML editor and integrate into the Flare IDE (like you could use Dreamweaver and RoboHelp back in the day), but that would be a lot of work on the MadCap side without substantial benefit.

So like all potential features, MadCap has weighed them in contrast to all the other things they can do with the same resources, and an alternate xml editor hasn't made it high enough on the priority list. Which is fine for me, personally.

[amberlink]

I'm a bit bothered by the fact that Madcap is using non-standard XML. Isn't that what they kept claiming (and making t-shirts about) the death of Kadov only to be (as I'm seeing throughout the XML I'm editing:

"<MadCap...>

What is the point of getting rid of those dreaded Kadov tags if they just replace them with "MadCap" tags? Still not very open source is it?

Madcap made it a BIG point to say they got rid of non-standard anything and now I'm finding the tool won't let me use a third-party XML editor SIMPLY because they are generating non-standard XML. That's a big step back from saying kadov is dead.

Sure, it's dead, but it's been replaced with the propellerhead tag. Sort of a BIG step forward right to end up back where RH was.

[doc_guy]

What's the point of using Flare at all if all you want is standard HTML? The point of XML is that you can create your own tags to semantically describe your content, then apply some type of stylesheet or transformation to get your output into whatever format you want for output use.

Since Flare is XML-based, you would expect them to have their own XML tags. Without Flare-specific XML tags, you've just got XHTML markup that doesn't do printed cross reference, conditional text, or a host of other useful Flare-specific features.

As long as Flare's XML validates against Flare's schema or DTD, then they are properly using XML for their source. What else do you expect?

As for "open source," your project files are ALL text files. They are non-binary. That seems pretty "open" to me. Sure, they have proprietary XML tags... but again, isn't that the point of XML?

[Ryan Cerniglia]

I'm a bit bothered by the fact that Madcap is using non-standard XML. Isn't that what they kept claiming (and making t-shirts about) the death of Kadov only to be (as I'm seeing throughout the XML I'm editing:

"<MadCap...>

What is the point of getting rid of those dreaded Kadov tags if they just replace them with "MadCap" tags? Still not very open source is it?

Madcap made it a BIG point to say they got rid of non-standard anything and now I'm finding the tool won't let me use a third-party XML editor SIMPLY because they are generating non-standard XML. That's a big step back from saying kadov is dead.

Sure, it's dead, but it's been replaced with the propellerhead tag. Sort of a BIG step forward right to end up back where RH was.

There's no way to have"non-standard" XML, by its definition: eXtensible Markup Language (XML) is a general-purpose markup language, classified as an extensible language because you can define your own elements. The closest thing you can get to "non-standard" XML is invalid, which would require Flare to not follow MadCap's XML Schema. Perhaps you are thinking of XHTML?

You're 100% able to use any editor, but at that point you're forgoing a lot of the power behind Flare to easily add the advanced tools that Flare has to offer. Theoretically, I could create a topic in Notepad or Wordpad, and still use the MadCap tags to create the cross-references, concept links, and other things that make Flare a powerful authoring tool.

[MikeKatz]

Am I being completely heretical and asking something I shouldn't?

I'm finding the XML editor really hard to use. I finally figured out how to change my UL styles (EVEN THOUGH IN WORD THEY WERE BULLETED LIST STYLES) to LI styles and assign the correct list type.

What I don't understand is why wasn't it more obvious?

I think I'm coming up against the dreaded, "designed by developers" in a closed vacuum IDE.

Or is it just growing/learning pains?

I agree with you that the editor is hard to use (at least for me). It doesn't have the simplest copy and paste capabilities that even Notepad has, depending on where your cursor is when you try to do things. It also doesn't let you paste in chunks of text from elsewhere, such as Word, properly - it just removes all the paragraph marks. Nor does it easily let you copy and paste within Flare and keep formatting.

After awhile, you get used to it. You don't get quick, but you get used to it. And, so me, it is a cardinal sin. After all, this is a CONTENT generating piece of software, so why is it so difficult to quickly enter, copy, and paste text?

I would also agree with you that some things in Flare are really obscure, and unnecessarily so.

On the other hand, having now spent a few months working in Flare, I wouldn't go back to RoboHelp. The fact is that, once you understand the system a bit, everything else is much better than RoboHelp. Indexes, tables, and the non-editing parts of the interface are better.

One caveat is that I haven't made any new projects in Flare yet, I've only worked on converted projects. I have to spend some time learning quite a bit still before I would feel confident in creating new projects that exhibit, excuse the pun, flare.

[RamonS]

I second the copy and paste behavior annoyance. I complained about it and it seems that mimicking standard word processor behavior is not desired by MadCap. To some extent I can understand it as it doesn't lend itself well with the tag features - BUT nothing stops MadCap to create different content entry modes that could be easily switched to from a drop-down list. What I find utterly annoying is that when browsing through text the cursor always stops between the lines so that one has to press the cursor down key twice to get into the next line. Also, home and end don't go to the beginning or end of the displayed line, but they act on the paragraph. I really can't understand that anyone even thought for one second that this is a good idea.
In regards to pasting one must keep in mind that Flare pushes one to use CSS, so that copying styling over is tricky. Still, Flare could evaluate what is currently in the clipboard and apply matching styling and either ask about the rest or be configured to strip unmatchable styles. And even if there is no copying of styles, I also don't understand why breaks are removed. A line break in a word processor is pretty much equivalent to a paragraph in XHTML.
The sad thing is that these amateurish design flaws detract from the otherwise excellent approach and execution of Flare. I used several other HATs and Flare is the best by a very wide margin. Yet, there is still plenty room for improvement.

[helen]

I think the Flare editor does have a steep initial learning curve, but ultimately it's a very powerful tool. I would say it's taken me about 6 weeks to feel mostly comfortable using it and I dare say I've got months of learning ahead to get to grips with the advanced features on offer - some of which I've not even touched. I'm constantly finding new methods and tricks to achieve my goal and further tailor my output so I guess there are still vast amounts to learn but that is in part what makes it so powerful in my opinion. I can produce "okay" output very quickly and then, when I have the foundations in place I can work towards tailoring my output using some of the more advanced features as my product knowledge improves. I have, once or twice, been forced to edit a file in Notepad when Flare has spat the dummy over something but it is rare for me and I still always get the results I want thankfully.

I'm not sure how easy or not it is coming from a RoboHelp background as I've never used it, but I think to some extent that has been advantageous as I have nothing to compare it directly against. I would imagine if they are similar interfaces then it would cause substantial confusion, but again, I'm not familiar with RoboHelp so I can't comment. Of course, there is always room for improvement, and I too hope the copy and paste behavior is improved in a future release of Flare, but for now, it doesn't cause me that much grief, but I am in the fortunate position of generating content from scratch. Good luck, I hope things improve!

[amberlink]

I have to say, thank you for everything all. It's nice to hear honest opinions.

Now, back to learning.

whoo hoo, I've been promoted to Junior propeller head.

[SteveS]

...and now a "full" Propellor Head!

(Must be because you made your 50th post)

[MikeKatz]

... In regards to pasting one must keep in mind that Flare pushes one to use CSS, so that copying styling over is tricky. Still, Flare could evaluate what is currently in the clipboard and apply matching styling and either ask about the rest or be configured to strip unmatchable styles. And even if there is no copying of styles, I also don't understand why breaks are removed. A line break in a word processor is pretty much equivalent to a paragraph in XHTML....

Hi Ramon
I fully agree with the one on breaks. I can't imagine a single circumstance where converting a line break into a paragraph would be wrong. In fact, making those paragraph breaks work at least gives one an option, if one is just writing a whole lot of text, to use an outside editor, or a Flare mode or second editor, to get the text done quickly, after which you can paste it and then format it. As it stands, I'm in a double bind - the editor does not have enough editing capabilities, and I cannot use another editor without having to tediously split the text.

As regards the copy and paste, I can understand rendering styles into "plain text" from other systems. I'm talking about copying and pasting of multiple paragraphs, with different styles, from WITHIN Flare. Often, it loses the style information. This makes using the editor a really tedious affair. BTW, one thing I learned is that you need to create a blank line when you copy and paste multiple paragraphs with different styles, and then paste into that line. It shouldn't be necessary, and it slows you down, but it does help somewhat.

I should add that I understand the benefit the editor gives when you are using the tags, and as far as those features go, there is a benefit. but still, as I keep on saying, Flare is about content, and that, ironically, is the hardest thing to work with in Flare.

[RamonS]

Ah, thanks for the clarification....I seem not to copy and paste much styled text in Flare as I haven't noticed. You are right, that really is bizarre and unexplainable...and yes, unexcusable as well.

[amberlink]

With regards to copying/pasting. I'm also finding that when I have a step table, the ability to reformat my step table and assign numbers to the individual steps is very roundabout. I have to first number my first step, then on the second step, have to remember to remember to assign the second step as step 2 EVEN AFTER I've selected the option to continue from the previous list. Sure, the options is checked, but doesn't affect my pre-existing steps that were converted over from Word which I found Flare in the conversion, stripped not only the step number but also the first sentence after the step number.

[Ryan Cerniglia]

With regards to copying/pasting. I'm also finding that when I have a step table, the ability to reformat my step table and assign numbers to the individual steps is very roundabout. I have to first number my first step, then on the second step, have to remember to remember to assign the second step as step 2 EVEN AFTER I've selected the option to continue from the previous list. Sure, the options is checked, but doesn't affect my pre-existing steps that were converted over from Word which I found Flare in the conversion, stripped not only the step number but also the first sentence after the step number.

When you say "step table", do you mean a number of list items within a table? This is not really how XHTML lists are supposed to work; instead use an < ol > tag (ordered list) with < li > tags (list item) around each item.

[andyr]

I agree there are some foiballs to the XML Editor in Flare. The problem is that the benefits currently out weight the hang ups - for me at least.

In an effort to uncover some of the useful features I have written a couple of topics:
http://techwritetips.wordpress.com/2006 ... ml-editor/
http://techwritetips.wordpress.com/2006 ... -editor-2/

Reading some of these posts makes me think I should write some more topics about other aspects of the editor. When I do I always learn something, if not from my research in the generous user comments on the blog.

[Richard Ferrell]

Those are great webpages that AndyR created, We also have demo classes and one of them goes over the XML editor, You can sign up for the Demos by subscribing to our newsletter.

Click below to sign up for our Newsletter
http://www.madcapsoftware.com/support/n ... ignup.aspx

[amberlink]

Andy, not sure if you're using Word as your source but you could write some getting started topics about what to look for in Word importing/styles converted to Flare.

[ccardimon]

I'm finding the XML editor really hard to use.

Me, too. There is a steep -- but worthwhile -- learning curve, from what I have read.

I have registered for a free online demonstration of Flare this Monday. I am hoping for a few pointers.

It feels as though I am butting my head against the wall. The Flare editor does not behave as do all the other editors I use and have encountered, so I guess my feeling inadequate is to be expected.

The whole copy and paste thing drives me up the wall. Yes, it does, indeed.

Craig

[doc_guy]

Which copy and paste thing? The one where you lose formatting if you paste from Word? I hear rumors that that particular issue is being addressed for a future release, but official confirmation won't come until the product ships...

[ccardimon]

Which copy and paste thing? The one where you lose formatting if you paste from Word? I hear rumors that that particular issue is being addressed for a future release, but official confirmation won't come until the product ships...

I think that's the "thing" to which I'm referring, yes.

[amberlink]

perhaps a flare editor for dummies (or more to the point, non flare developers) would be useful.

I'm glad the benefits far outweigh the "foibles" but when those "foibles" prevent me from doing what I consider a simple task and instead drive me to either support or user forums when the IDE could have been designed with a little more understanding of the audience, might have been helpful.

Not all TWs are DEVELOPERS. This might have been a good place to start. We're a mixed bag of background and I'm finding this concept of telling us we can get our work done in an IDE that is written with a developer mentality in mind is a bit annoying. I used to write code, create pretty complicated webpages and sites, but I know the tools I know because I've spent the time to learn them, sure, by that token, I should get to know Flare, which I am. However, the help shouldn't be so counter-intuitive where it points to non-existent topics or just plain wrong topics than what it's meant to explain, and the IDE is so confused/ing that it leaves me hunting for an hour to figure out HOW to break my topics on import from Word (yeah, you know step 3 (or 2) of the Word import "wizard" where it's referred to in Flare as "New Styles" how about something a bit more intuitive here?)), then it's not helping me do my job efficiently. I've got SMEs wondering why it is that it is taking me so long to produce things from an application i had to lobby for. If it wasn't for reading these forums and making sure I had the platinum package, I'd be very very lost.

[ccardimon]

perhaps a flare editor for dummies (or more to the point, non flare developers) would be useful.

Perhaps a Flare editor for technical writers and editors. Grin.