First Page not taking

[gregoryrwalker]

I've created a page layout with a first, left, right and empty page. Then I applied that page layout to the first chapter in my TOC. However, Flare seems to be ignoring the existence of the First page and applies the Left page to the first page of the section. Obviously I'm overlooking something. Anybody have any ideas what?

--gw

[jpeffley]

In the TOC, open the Properties dialog for the topic (in my TOC, each book starts a new chapter, so would use a First page - so I open the Props dialog for each book). On the Printed Output tab, set the Page Type to First. It doesn't apply the First page to all pages in the output, it just knows that it has to use the First page. You can also set the Auto-end of Left page option to Enabled (which will use the Empty page layout, if you made one.

Hope this helps.

[gregoryrwalker]

Somehow I managed to fix the problem, but I'm not exactly sure how. I think Flare might still have a lot of bugs floating around the new Page Layout engine. Now I've got my page layouts applied and the properties are set just like you suggest. However, now the first page is applied to every topic beneath a chapter book in page layout preview. However, when published to a .pdf it comes out fine. I suspect they're working pretty hard on a 4.x revision that corrects this, and several other hinky things I've seen in the new page layout system.

--gw

[jpeffley]

I have this set up and only my chapter-specified topics have the first page applied. The topics below book level don't need to be marked for a chapter or section break (sorry if I'm stating the obvious). For topics below book level, you may want to make sure the section and chapter are set to default and then cleared.

Once I got my settings straight, I've had no problems with page layouts working as expected - but there was a definite learning curve and some trial and error.

[gregoryrwalker]

Unless there's a setting I'm missing we have our projects set up identically in this regard. Customer Support is reviewing my project now to analyze another problem (cross references displaying the wrong heading information when published to .pdf but displaying the proper heading information when published to Word), and I asked the support tech to take a look at the first page issue while they're poking around.

[mamarachel]

What did you get from tech support regarding the first page not working in Word? I have just encountered this problem. I need Word output (can't go straight to PDF). My project is already set up with Master Pages, but I was trying to "modernize" and implement Page Layouts now that I have 4.0. Thanks.

[gregoryrwalker]

The first page not working in a Word target was never really the problem. Sorry.

--gw

[navoff]

Somehow I managed to fix the problem, but I'm not exactly sure how. I think Flare might still have a lot of bugs floating around the new Page Layout engine. Now I've got my page layouts applied and the properties are set just like you suggest. However, now the first page is applied to every topic beneath a chapter book in page layout preview. However, when published to a .pdf it comes out fine. I suspect they're working pretty hard on a 4.x revision that corrects this, and several other hinky things I've seen in the new page layout system.

--gw

If you're talking about how it appears in the XML editor, then you're right, it "appears" like it's applying the First Page page layout to every topic. However, when it builds, it then sees the top level item as defined in the TOC and it builds fine. Freaked me out the first time I saw that....

[pjnut]

I'm curious if you received feedback from tech support about the first page not working in the PDF output. I have my TOC set up just as you said. The first page layout is applied to the first "book" in my TOC; but subsequent books do not start with the first page. I have all the chapters set up as they should be and I have tried changing so many options, I'm in an endless loop!

[LTinker68]

The first page layout is applied to the first "book" in my TOC; but subsequent books do not start with the first page.

In the TOC, books and topics are just organizational elements. What defines which book or topic is the start of a new chapter depends on whether or not you specified it as a chapter break. You could have a TOC as nothing but topics without any books and you could still get the correct chapter set up using page layouts. But it's definitely easier to look at the TOC and see books and know that those are your chapters.

So, if you have multiple books and you want them each to start with a first page, then you have to have each book start as a new chapter, select the page layout (even if it's the same one), and set it to First page. All topics in each book will then pick up the appropriate left/right pages, but if you don't have the next book start as a new chapter, then it assumes it's part of the preceding chapter and assigns it to a left or right page.

[gregoryrwalker]

I've had so many issues with PDF targets that I'm redeveloping a Word target so I can be sure I'm going to get somewhat consistent results (the irony of this isn't lost on me, by the way). In the past I've had really good experiences with Madcap's customer service, and they've been super nice this go around, but I can't seem to get them to understand many of the issues or irritations I'm facing.

Have you applied the First page to each of the top level books in your TOC? Here's how I managed to get this one issue worked out. At least for me. At least for now.

Right click on the book in the TOC and select Properties
Go to Printed output
Make sure Section Break isn't checked.
Under chapter break, put a check in Start a new chapter document.
Select your Page Layout from the Configure Chapter using this Page Layout drop down box.
Select First from the Page Type drop down box.
Select Enabled from the Auto-end on "left" page drop down box.
Set Chapter File Name to (default).
I've set the Page Number to Continue from previous and the Format to (default).

Make sure these are the setting for each of the top level books (aka Chapters) in your TOC. In the topics below each book my TOC Printed Output Properties screen looks like this.

Section break is left unchecked.
Chapter Break is left unchecked.
Page type drop down (grayed out) is set to Normal.
Everything else looks the same, though several boxes are simply grayed out.

I really hope this helps you out. Good luck with your PDF target.

--gw

[navoff]

The first page layout is applied to the first "book" in my TOC; but subsequent books do not start with the first page.

In the TOC, books and topics are just organizational elements. What defines which book or topic is the start of a new chapter depends on whether or not you specified it as a chapter break. You could have a TOC as nothing but topics without any books and you could still get the correct chapter set up using page layouts. But it's definitely easier to look at the TOC and see books and know that those are your chapters.

So, if you have multiple books and you want them each to start with a first page, then you have to have each book start as a new chapter, select the page layout (even if it's the same one), and set it to First page. All topics in each book will then pick up the appropriate left/right pages, but if you don't have the next book start as a new chapter, then it assumes it's part of the preceding chapter and assigns it to a left or right page.

In theory, yes. But as you know from checking out my test project, this doesn't work if there are two body frames in the First Page page type (following the example in the Flare documentation for setting up H1 page layout using two body frames, one for the H1 heading and one for the rest of the document). From the Flare Printed Output Guide:

The first body frame was added to the top of the page layout and is high enough only to fit the
first heading in the topic. It extends across the entire page.

The second body frame is much taller, but is not as wide. It was designed to hold the main content
of the chapter, with space to the left that can hold subheadings, text boxes, notes, tips, pictures
and so on.

You might consider using this type of configuration if you know for certain that the content to
be displayed in the first body frame is a major heading that will always display at the top of a
page, rather than somewhere in the middle of it. For example, you might create a page layout
with a "First" page type that is designed to hold the beginning of each chapter in your output. By
having a dual frame configuration (such as the one described) on the initial page only, you can
be assured that the first body frame is used only by the heading that begins that chapter.

The following is a screen capture (minus the bits in the middle of the page) of page 1 of chapter 1:

Chapter1-Page1.png

The page number restarting only seems to work if I don't have two body frames in my First Page page layout. My work around is to change the h1 style in my stylesheet (in my case, changing the left margin of the h1 tag) and not use the two body frame setup. Since I'm only using h1 for the start of a chapter, that works out fine, though if I decided to change that (using h1 tags for something other than a chapter start) then I'd have to make a special class for h1 so that I could apply it only to those that mark the beginning of a chapter.

Having the two body frames also results in two bookmarks for each book, one at the beginning and one at the end of the chapter (in the Acrobat bookmark pane):

Acrobat-Bookmark.png

It, along with my page number reset issue, are both resolved if I don't use the double body frame. Since the only thing different about my First page and my regular Right page layout was the extra body frame, it doesn't make sense to have both. I might as well just use the regular Right page layout and use the style sheet to get my h1 heading where I want it. I emailed Alvaro about this so they know where to look to fix the issue. Kinda bad to tell people to use something only to find it messes up the output....

[pjnut]

I'm not sure I'm being clear on the problem I'm having; so I'll try again.

ALL properties for all books and topics within my TOC are set as they should be. My first page contains only one Body frame and a Footer frame (I don't want a header on the first page). Left and right pages have one Header, one Body, one Footer frame.

In my PDF output, the first chapter (book) "Getting Started" works fine...no header on the first page, subsequent pages have a header and footer. However, in subsequent chapters--Chapter 2, for example, is "Getting Help"--the chapter starts on a left page layout instead of first page (although the properties are set to new chapter, first page). The "book" level appears in the Bookmarks, but the "page/topic" level does not.

The Printed Output properties for the PDF target are set to Use TOC depth for heading levels AND Inject headings for unlinked books in TOC. The first page of each chapter is set to H1, topic headings are set to H2. If I set the books to link to a topic, the first page/chapter start is completely ignored--Chapter 2, for example, merges with Chapter 1.

Another issue--possibly related, but not sure--although my Header frame is set to have a bottom border, the border does not appear in the PDF output. The top border in the Footer frame works fine.

Perhaps this is an issue with my H1 style? I'm running out of ideas and, again, this may be two different issues.

[LTinker68]

... AND Inject headings for unlinked books in TOC.

I've never used that property and I'm able to associate first pages where they're supposed to be. If you disable that feature, does it work?

Another issue--possibly related, but not sure--although my Header frame is set to have a bottom border, the border does not appear in the PDF output. The top border in the Footer frame works fine.

Check the size for your header frame and make sure it accounts for the font height, margin values, and padding values and make sure your header frame is tall enough to account for them all. It could just be that you've run out of room in that header frame and the bottom border is being lost as a result. Also, is there a gap between your header frame and the body frame, or do you have them adjacent or even have the body frame overlap the header frame a bit? I think (well, assume) that the body frame overlaps the header and footer frames by default if they run into the same area on a page.

[pjnut]

I have tried both of these suggestions.

If I turn off "Inject headings for unlinked books" I lose my Chapters. The books are Chapter headings not linked to topics. If I link them to topics, I lose other formatting in the bookmarks of the PDF output.

I tried changing the height of the header...bottom border still did not display. There is no overlap of header and body frames.

After trying several things, some Chapters work fine (first page is just as I want it) others are formatted with left page layout.

I am truly at a loss what to try next OR I'm completely missing something obvious.

[jpeffley]

I logged a bug report about the bottom border of the header disappearing. I fooled with this extensively and worked with MadCap Tech Support; I ended up adding a rule to the header to get a pseudo-border (at their suggestion).

I am otherwise mostly satisfied with my PDF output. I do not use "inject headings" and I do not have unlinked books. I am not happy with the bookmarks that are generated so we doctor those later. I have the chapter breaks/section breaks/first page set as described earlier.

I'm finding that I have to pick what bothers me most and work around that - PDF output is much better than v3 but still not 100%.

[RamonS]

V3 didn't have PDF output.

[jpeffley]

Not direct PDF output, but PDF through Word or FrameMaker. Which was part of the issue.

[pjnut]

Thanks for the info about the rule...I'll give that a try. I'm sure I will be "doctoring" the bookmarks, also, once I get a good, clean output.

[LTinker68]

You might want to create a topic that contains just the title of your chapter, make that topic the book, and put all the topics belonging to that chapter inside that book. Then start a new chapter on that book and set it to use first page. I do something similar with my "Part One", "Part Two", etc., segment breaks, although I also include a mini-TOC in that topic. In other words, instead of using the non-linked items feature, create actual items to include in the TOC, even if the topics contain nothing more than the chapter title.

[Rona Kwestel]

You might want to create a topic that contains just the title of your chapter, make that topic the book, and put all the topics belonging to that chapter inside that book. Then start a new chapter on that book and set it to use first page. I do something similar with my "Part One", "Part Two", etc., segment breaks, although I also include a mini-TOC in that topic. In other words, instead of using the non-linked items feature, create actual items to include in the TOC, even if the topics contain nothing more than the chapter title.

Hey, Lisa, this is exactly the answer I was looking for when querying on this thread: http://forums.madcapsoftware.com/viewto ... 084#p52084 about how to get the TOC book names to be chapter headings. I ended up doing exactly that, and it works well. However, I did initially try using the "Inject headings for unlinked books in TOC" setting, and while that seemed like a good solution, I could not find a way to get it to use my h1.Heading1 style instead of the default h1 style. That seems to be a distinct disadvantage for that feature, unless I'm missing something.

I am not happy with the bookmarks that are generated so we doctor those later.

I also have this issue, and I see that a new checkbox has been added to Flare 5 to correct this, but for now, I'm on Flare 4. How does one "doctor" the PDF output? Are we talking about editing it in Acrobat?

[LTinker68]

... I could not find a way to get it to use my h1.Heading1 style instead of the default h1 style. That seems to be a distinct disadvantage for that feature, unless I'm missing something.

I think it's just assuming that h1 is the tag you'd want to use, since a class of h1 wouldn't (theoretically) be used for all headings, just some. Otherwise you'd just set the h1 tag to have all the styles specified in your heading1 class. However, you can certainly submit a feature request asking for the ability to specify the tag and class to use for that feature.

I am not happy with the bookmarks that are generated so we doctor those later.

I also have this issue, and I see that a new checkbox has been added to Flare 5 to correct this, but for now, I'm on Flare 4. How does one "doctor" the PDF output? Are we talking about editing it in Acrobat?

Yes, you'll have to open the PDF output in Acrobat and change its default view, add the file info attributes, etc.