Whoa! There must be a better way of displaying styles!

[sdcinvan]

...such as not allow huge font styles to hijack a styles listing.

You can see this for yourself by selecting New project / New from Template / Online & Print / Online and Print Advanced in Flare v10.

Poorly rendered styles listing.png

[sdcinvan]

Actually, it is worse than I thought.

While doing some tests with this example project, I found that if there is a large list of available styles, it is either difficult or impossible to find all the styles.

When you reach the 'bottom' of the list, in this example project, you will see "Only 20 of 64 styles shown".

[sdcinvan]

Correction...

"Only 20 of 64 styles shown" will display regardless of the type size.

So my question now is, when you have more than 20 available styles, how do you select one of the styles not displayed?

[Nita Beck]

Instead of using the Style Picker, I tend to use the Styles window more, and I keep it docked at the right side of my layout.

[sdcinvan]

Hmm.... so did MadCap build an Example project that displays a Flare bug?

Is this a bug, like suggested in this 2011 post?
http://forums.madcapsoftware.com/viewto ... =6&t=13045

[sdcinvan]

Instead of using the Style Picker, I tend to use the Styles window more, and I keep it docked at the right side of my layout.

Hello Nita, you are correct. I had forgotten but limiting the other view to a maximum of 20 styles seems to be a bug.

Anyhow, I completed my test. Thanks for the assist.

[Nita Beck]

I think the Style Picker has always been limited to 20 styles. I don't think it's anything new/buggy in Flare 10. I could be wrong though. I'm going on memory (and a nice glass of red wine!)...

[ChoccieMuffin]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could customise the stylepicker to include the styles that you use most often. I would have difficulty getting up to 20 styles! <feels a feature request coming on...>

Edit: Right then, I have added this feature request:

"When working in Flare, I have several styles that I use A LOT, but in the Styles docked window (and probably stylepicker, which I don't use) I have to scroll down through the list to get to my most popular styles. For example, I need to apply p.note, p.graphic, p.tip but have to scroll down to get past items that I don't need to apply but have to have, like the styles I need so that my breadcrumbs look good. That means that I can't just hide these styles, so when working I have double the number of mouse-clicks that I should have. The same applies to character styles, where I have several span classes, but again they're down the bottom of the list.

There are a couple of approaches that would be acceptable, either in the Styles window, stylepicker, or both:
1. Enable some way to sort the list so that the recently used styles jump to the top of the list as they do in Word. (On the Home tab in the Font group, when you click the arrow beside the current font, the most recently used fonts are shown at the top of the list, as well as being in the main font list.)
2. Enable customisation of the list so that you can temporarily remove styles from the list without hiding them completely so they can't be used.
3. Enable customisation of the list so you can manually pick which styles appear at the top of the list (so you don't have to scroll down to get them).
4. Enable keyboard shortcuts for applying common styles (I think FrameMaker allows this) - a very different approach I know, but it would have the same effect of cutting out unnecessary mouse-clicks.

This would be a HUGE benefit, as it would save me hundreds of mouse-clicks every day, thereby greatly increasing my productivity and greatly reducing my frustration!"

[RamonS]

20 styles?? Maybe I'm just too frugal, but I think 10 styles is already too much. Less is more.

[Nita Beck]

4. Enable keyboard shortcuts for applying common styles (I think FrameMaker allows this) - a very different approach I know, but it would have the same effect of cutting out unnecessary mouse-clicks.

Although I realize that you're asking for the ability to define a style shortcut oneself, one can easily use a keyboard shortcut to select a style from the Style Picker: Ctrl+Shift+H opens the Style Picker, and then one can type the first few characters of the style to jump to it (say, "p.E" to select "p.Example") and press Enter.

[ChoccieMuffin]

4. Enable keyboard shortcuts for applying common styles (I think FrameMaker allows this) - a very different approach I know, but it would have the same effect of cutting out unnecessary mouse-clicks.

Although I realize that you're asking for the ability to define a style shortcut oneself, one can easily use a keyboard shortcut to select a style from the Style Picker: Ctrl+Shift+H opens the Style Picker, and then one can type the first few characters of the style to jump to it (say, "p.E" to select "p.Example") and press Enter.

Six key presses is still a lot more key presses than the FrameMaker solution (you can assign shortcuts like Ctrl+NumPad4 - 2 key presses). And does that still work if the style you happen to want isn't one of the 20 that Flare has decided to put in the style picker?

[Nita Beck]

Yeah, I realize that the keyboard shortcut that is available isn't quite what you're seeking, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Something interesting... Just tested this, to see if I could pick a style that is "way down" in my list of styles. Interestingly, the Style Picker is not limiting my list to the first 20 in my stylesheet. I've got something like 50. Near the bottom is "p.Tip", and yes I can select that style from the keyboard.

So it's interesting to me that Shawn is seeing the 20-style limit. Like I said, I was going on memory last evening but now am in Flare (and with a cup of joe rather than a glass of red). I tested it with both the Ribbon and Tool Strip interfaces, and I didn't get the 20-style limit in either. Curious...

[patb]

4. Enable keyboard shortcuts for applying common styles (I think FrameMaker allows this) - a very different approach I know, but it would have the same effect of cutting out unnecessary mouse-clicks.

Although I realize that you're asking for the ability to define a style shortcut oneself, one can easily use a keyboard shortcut to select a style from the Style Picker: Ctrl+Shift+H opens the Style Picker, and then one can type the first few characters of the style to jump to it (say, "p.E" to select "p.Example") and press Enter.

Six key presses is still a lot more key presses than the FrameMaker solution (you can assign shortcuts like Ctrl+NumPad4 - 2 key presses). And does that still work if the style you happen to want isn't one of the 20 that Flare has decided to put in the style picker?

Works for me. I never knew about this before and not having to take my hands from the keyboard to select/apply a style makes up for the number of key presses in my book. It;s one of the Framemaker features I've missed.

[Nita Beck]

This is just one of the tips-n-tricks I'll be covering in my "Turbocharging" session at MadWorld 2014.

[sdcinvan]

My only complaint was how Flare displays the style list, if your list just happens to include a style with a very large font setting. Since I was using a MadCap Flare example, I am surprised that the MadCap staff didn't think that the style list was a bit ridiculous.

This isn't an issue for me because any requirement for a 90pt font would be very unusual and I would likely just format that kind of size inline.

[Msquared]

I also get to see twenty styles in the style picker, and I'm told that its showing me 20 of 101.

One of the first feature requests I asked for was the ability to define my own hot keys for styles. I have dozens I use in Word all the time, and if I think about it for long enough, could get quite cross that speedy, efficient and personalised editing isn't high on MadCap's feature list.

For some of my styles, which have been carefully and consistently named, I would have to type 12 or 14 characters to select one uniquely.

I never use local formatting, even for one-off styles that are only used in one place (for example, my document title). When our marketing guy comes up with this year's company look, it's easier to change it for all my documents in one stylesheet, than change it in each document, even if it is only in one place in that document. So that explains part of the reason why I have 100 styles.

[NorthEast]

Note you can access all your styles from either:
- toolbar style list
- quick style picker (Ctrl+Shift+H)
- styles pane (F12)

The 20 styles limit is just on the right-click Style Class menu; i.e. when you have >20 classes of one particular tag, such as >20 paragraph classes.

Having >100 classes of one tag seems quite extreme - is there no way you can optimise this?

For example, say you defined a p.table style for paragraphs in a table, you could achieve the same thing without using a new style by using nested style definition like table p { your styles }

[Msquared]

I only ever access my styles from the styles pane, which is permanently on my right accordion.

Yes, knowing what I know now about CSS, I could probably "optimise" some of my styles a bit and perhaps get it down to 80 or so.

The point is, I don't see why I should have to. I have complex single-sourcing requirements and single source for four different mediums. It's hard enough keeping those in step as it is, without nesting and convoluting the styles further. At last, as it is, I can see exactly what I have, exactly how to apply them, what to apply them to and exactly what to modify if I have to change anything. More to the point, so can anyone else. I am a sole author, and if I'm unavailable for any reason, one of the developers (or perhaps a contractor author) would have to pick up my tasks. Simple and transparent implementations that don't need a specialist and in-depth knowledge of CSS, Flare or anything else are best.

In my software development days, there used to be an acronym, KISS (keep it simple, stupid). Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.

Of my 100+ styles, some I use all the time, some I use regularly if I'm working on a document that needs them (for example I have code paragraph styles at various indents, which I use all the time if I'm working on an API document with lots of code examples, and not at all otherwise) and some I only use very occasionally when I'm setting up something new (some of the header and footer styles) or even not at all because they're on my page layouts only.

The 101 styles includes all my div and h styles too, and one or two like "Reset class" and "fieldset" that Flare makes up itself. My first p style is at position 22 in the styles pane.

I have 11 heading styles (five levels, and various unnumbered, and page break before versions, and an h6 that Flare has added of it's own violation that I never use. Normally I only use three levels (that's three of the 11 styles), except for API reference manuals, but they are all there in the styles pane to scroll past before I get to my first p style.

I use table stylesheets, so I only have a few table p styles (like bullets and lists) in my main stylesheet. But I have half a dozen table p styles that are only used in page layouts, so aren't used regularly. They're all there to scroll through before I get to p.tip-heading and p.tip-body.

I know I could do the code indent (and my other indents, which are all separate styles) with a single div, but why should I have to apply the code style, select it all, then select the appropriate div when I could just select the style with the correct level of indent in the first place? I shouldn't have to base my implementation choice on the need to keep the number of styles down to a minimum. I'd prefer to base my implementation on what is clearest to someone else, and I don't think you can get much clearer than p.code-para, p.code-para-i1 and p.code-para-i2, although I know others would have different and equally valid opinions. This is also closest to how Word does it (which also makes mapping styles when importing from Word easier, and needing less post-processing). I wouldn't let the Word implementation constrain me if there was a better way, but the fact is that anyone who picks up my work will definitely have some Word experience, so will find something familiar to work with.

Being able to select your choice of "Quick Styles" or set your personal hotkeys (both of which Word does and has done for years) would be so much more helpful and improve the experience of creating content in Flare no end.

That's today's rant. Off to complete my import of an API reference manual of around 400 pages. I have over 100 tables to manually apply the correct table stylesheet, then add a heading row, since Flare still doesn't import heading rows correctly from Word, although I (and expect others before me) reported it against Flare 7. Oh joy.

And by the way, in Flare 8, I used to be able to use Find and Replace in Files to replace all instances of <table> with a reference to my most common table stylesheet, then just adjust the rest. Flare would apply the appropriate row/cell styles when it opened the topic, In Flare 9, Flare reports an error and insists I fix the topic in the text editor, unless I'm actually in the text editor when do the replacement to set the table style.

However, at least, I don't have to locate all my indented paragraphs and apply divs to them, as they imported cleanly from my Word styles.

[NorthEast]

The suggestion to optimise the CSS is precisely so that you can keep things simple.
It's simpler because you would have less styles to choose from, and I find it makes the CSS easier to maintain too.

An example of something I've seen is when using paragraphs inside tables.
Say you have a p.table style, and it's only different to a normal p because it has different margins.
If you also have a note style p.note, and you want to put that inside a table, then you'd need to create another new class p.note-table, so that has different margins too.
So it's easy to see that you could quickly create multiple different style classes, for what is essentially the same type of content; which makes the stylesheet harder to use.
Now, if you set up the margin styles in table p { } instead, it means you can use p styles and p.note styles inside tables (since p.note will inherit), without needing to define any extra classes.


I appreciate there is a learning curve in knowing how to simplify the CSS; but I do think it makes things a lot simpler for the person who will be using the stylesheet. The templates I've designed are used by a number of authors, so I need to keep the presented styles as simple and foolproof as possible.
It also means a style class is more likely to be related to the type of content, and not the appearance of that content - keeping the separation between the document structure (HTML) and appearance (CSS).

[Msquared]

Thanks for the suggestions and examples. I'll certainly add investigating that to the list of things to do when I have time and/or need (whichever comes first). I'll willingly admit that everything I know about CSS I have taught myself since I started using Flare a couple of years ago, so I'm very happy to learn from the experts.

One day, I'll see how by much I can slim my style list. That will be my personal challenge.

But that won't alter the fact that there are still far too many styles on it that I only rarely (or sometimes never) use in an interactive editing session. Nor does it alter the fact that every now and then I find myself trying to apply a Flare style using my equivalent Word short-cut. When I pull myself up and go off to the styles pane instead, and scroll through multiple similar styles to find the one I want, it's hard not to remember that it needn't be that way.

[RamonS]

Maybe the short list can be made a bit smarter showing only the most often used styles. Requiring a few more clicks for the rarely used styles might be fine.

[Helga WHigg]

Or maybe just have a favorites list like I have on the TV Guide website .

[jcatlin]

I think the Style Picker has always been limited to 20 styles. I don't think it's anything new/buggy in Flare 10.

Yeah, it's not a bug, but I agree with the original author of this thread. I reported it to MadCap, also, as I do not feel that we should be limited and everyone works in different ways. FrameMaker and Word both allow you to use a scrolling drop-down list to see ALL of your tags or styles, no matter how many you created. Surely, MadCap can do the same thing.

For me, it would be easiest to simply right-click, select Span Class, and then scroll through all the CSS tags I've created. Is that too much to ask?

I know there's a Style drop-down list in the Home ribbon, but using it makes Flare crash—every single time. It's crashed ever since version 8.

[sdcinvan]

For me, it would be easiest to simply right-click, select Span Class, and then scroll through all the CSS tags I've created. Is that too much to ask?

I think that is an excellent idea. Any who agree, need to submit a feature request.

https://www.madcapsoftware.com/feedback ... quest.aspx

I know there's a Style drop-down list in the Home ribbon, but using it makes Flare crash—every single time. It's crashed ever since version 8.

What version are you using? I don't recall crashing in v9 and v10 doesn't crash. I never use this pull-down (prefer either the side-style list or hand-coding) so perhaps my quick testing now wasn't enough.

[jcatlin]

What version are you using? I don't recall crashing in v9 and v10 doesn't crash. I never use this pull-down (prefer either the side-style list or hand-coding) so perhaps my quick testing now wasn't enough.

I stand corrected!! I gladly admit my mistake. It would crash for versions 8 and 9. I'm using 10.0.1, and the drop-down list takes a while to populate, but it does work. Thank you, sdcinvan, and thank you, MadCap!

Little things make me happy . . .

The right-click issue, though, still needs to be addressed by MadCap.