Browser support for HTML5 (WebHelp 2.0) output

[GregStenhouse]

I've had a read through the Flare 8 what's new information, and also the knowledge base but can't find any info on this. Is there any word from Madcap on what browsers (and browser versions) support HTML5 webhelp?

Looking at http://webhelp.madcapsoftware.com/flare8/Default.htm in various browsers, I suspect latest versions of Chrome and Firefox are OK. Things are not great in IE8 (margins, plus can't drag the scroll bar). And things are even worse with IE8 in compatibility view.

There is a lot of info out there on HTML5 browser compatibility (e.g. http://www.webresourcesdepot.com/html5- ... ity-chart/) but it would be good to get the official word from Madcap.

[RamonS]

Chrome, Opera, and Firefox are likely to support most of HTML5, Safari isn't too far behind. As usual, Microsoft claims they support it and somewhat do, but only with their incompatible spin on things and only in IE9 and up.

[NorthEast]

Yes, I'd really like to know which browsers are supported too.
For IE, putting HTML5 help through IETester suggests that it'll work in IE9 only.

HTML5 looks great, but I'm wondering if it'll be 18 months before I can realistically expect to be able to distribute help in this format.

[nickatwork]

I'd say 18 months is a pretty fair time frame. Suppose you could use a script to determine the browser version and feed HTML5 to those with the right one or normal webhelp to those without.

[RamonS]

Found a nice overview of the implementation status of HTML5 and CSS3 across the most popular browsers: http://www.findmebyip.com/litmus

It does not include IE 10, which is currently included only in the dysfunctional Windows 8 Consumer Preview. I am not sure if IE10 will ever be available for W7 and what Microsoft's plans are for extended HTML5/CSS3 support for IE9. Given Microsoft's track record the best approach is to recommend at any opportunity you get not to use IE. It is just a bad browser that is technologically behind by a mile and then some.

The overview also shows that no browser fully supports the new features in HTML5 and CSS3. Also, keep in mind that HTML5 and CSS3 are not published standards yet. If IE is what blocks your technology progress anyway then why bother with HTMKL5 right now? I know it is hip, a fad, modern, and the future, but unless we get a No User Left Behind program that eradicates the one track mindedness of using IE as the one and only browser you got to deal with what your users are forced to work with, even if that is from Yurassic Park.

[LTinker68]

Found a nice overview of the implementation status of HTML5 and CSS3 across the most popular browsers: http://www.findmebyip.com/litmus

You're definitely in better shape if your users use Firefox or Chrome. It doesn't show it in the chart (for Windows anyway), but Firefox is up to v10, so that means it's been supporting the functions for the last three versions. Not sure about Chrome, but I'm betting it's similar. Microsoft certainly isn't trending with the rest of them.

[GregStenhouse]

It does not include IE 10, which is currently included only in the dysfunctional Windows 8 Consumer Preview. I am not sure if IE10 will ever be available for W7 and what Microsoft's plans are for extended HTML5/CSS3 support for IE9. Given Microsoft's track record the best approach is to recommend at any opportunity you get not to use IE. It is just a bad browser that is technologically behind by a mile and then some.

According to one of our web team, Microsoft will be rolling out a forced update to IE soon (within 2 months) which will force upgrading IE on machines to the latest version available.
This means XP will go to IE8 and Vista/Win7 will go to IE9. If WebHelp 2.0 looks OK in IE9 (which appears to be the case, but still no official word on that), then there may be a case for using this nice new shiny help format sooner rather than later.

[NorthEast]

According to one of our web team, Microsoft will be rolling out a forced update to IE soon (within 2 months) which will force upgrading IE on machines to the latest version available.
This means XP will go to IE8 and Vista/Win7 will go to IE9. If WebHelp 2.0 looks OK in IE9 (which appears to be the case, but still no official word on that), then there may be a case for using this nice new shiny help format sooner rather than later.

Interesting. It'll still be later for us though, as our application still supports XP, which doesn't support IE9.

[RamonS]

And all that falls flat and corporate IT installed the blocker that keeps the upgrade out of WSUS - and even if not, when the quirks mode is set as default the update is in name only. Microsoft made unintelligent and gullible people create an IE6-only ecosystem and now Microsoft has a heckuva difficult time to get the non-genie back into the bottle. I can only repeat, stick with the standards and ignore the often mindless babbling from Microsoft.

[i-tietz]

http://html5test.com/
If you switch to "other browsers" you get a fairly good list of results.

[NorthEast]

It's easy to find information on browser support for HTML5 features; but what I'd like to know is specifically what are the minimum versions of the common browsers that are required to support Flare's HTML5 help.

I'm also guessing that there will be minimum and preferred browser versions; for example, HTML5 help appears to work ok in IE9, but if you specify a linear gradient in the skin it doesn't work, and requires IE10 (for the skin's implementation of -ms-linear-gradient).

I'm a bit disappointed really. HTML5 help seems to address a lot of the issues I had with WebHelp - the search, use of frames, and poor supplied skins.
However, it seems like you now have a choice between using a very dated WebHelp system, or a HTML5 help system that's so new it isn't even fully supported by current popular browsers.

[RamonS]

One reason for that is that HTML5 is not a standard yet. What gets passed as HTML5 is a document in RFC status. Another reason is that almost all browser vendors ignore the standard and roll their own thing when it is convenient for them or if it allows them to better abuse their market position (as seen with IE6). Another reason is the nature of the HTML standards (all of them, not just HTML5). The standards describe how the markup is to be crafted and interpreted, but there is nothing in the standards about implementation and final result (how stuff is supposed to look). The implementation is always different and in this case different isn't always good.
Lastly, a lot depends also on the OS, the OS version, and the graphics engine. Even on Windows the same settings on the same version look different on various graphics hardware. If you want to things to look and work the same across browsers and OS you need to use something like Flash...but since that is no longer hip you are robbed of an excellent alternative. Sure, there is also Silverlight, but given the non-commitment of Microsoft I expect Silverlight to go away. It never gained much traction anyway despite it being capable of making some pretty stuff - but only on Windows.

What we'd need is an addendum to HTML5 that is binding for browser makers if they want to claim to be HTML5 compliant. Given that the software power houses cannot even agree on a single open royalty free video compression standard (some can, but Microsoft and Apple can't) I expect that HTML5 will be a smush for years to come. Add to that the resistance to update browsers (again, IE6 and the IE-only developments that break even in quirks mode) and there are not many tools left to produce a consistent experience. And just to mention it, even under HTML5 there is nothing wrong with using frames.

[NorthEast]

Yeah, I think there's probably two separate discussions here; the HTML5 standard itself, and Flare's HTML5 Help output.

I'm not too concerned about the HTML5 standard itself, or which browsers claim to be compliant. What I would like to know is simply what browser versions are actually required to run Flare's HTML5 Help output. This is a pretty key issue in deciding if/when you can use this output, and I don't fancy doing all the testing myself.

[i-tietz]

Yeah, I think there's probably two separate discussions here; the HTML5 standard itself, and Flare's HTML5 Help output.

I'm not too concerned about the HTML5 standard itself, or which browsers claim to be compliant. What I would like to know is simply what browser versions are actually required to run Flare's HTML5 Help output. This is a pretty key issue in deciding if/when you can use this output, and I don't fancy doing all the testing myself.

Well, as list like that would REALLY surprise me!

It depends on so many things that nobody can make a complete list before the next browser or Flare version comes out ... and a somewhat "general" list is not helpful, because this or that won't work with a different browser setting and then your user gets angry because you promised him it would work (believe me: He will think it was a promise! And do you want to tell you considered it a good estimate/guess?)

In addition it's important what functions you make use of: Do you use any of the expanding regions? Do you use popups? Do you use javascript yourself? Do you embed objects? Objects of what format andd of what version of that format? Do you do positioning in your style sheet? Or some float? What elements doo you use with what styles (e.g. "background-color" doesn't work for each element in each browser)? ...
And it might also be, that a feature runs in browser X of version N, but only with standard settings and with the Windows version M with Service Pack B, the firewall of version M ... if you change any one of those things, it won't run anymore ...

Far too many variables there ...

You can get general info from the URLs in this thread - you won't get any more if you don't try it out yourself.

[NorthEast]

Well, as list like that would REALLY surprise me!

Well, put it this way, if you release a Windows application, then you usually say which versions of Windows it is designed to work with. Your users might have millions of different possible configurations, so you can never promise it'll work, but you do say what it is supposed to work with.

It's the same in this case; it's reasonable to ask for a list of what browser versions have been tested with HTML5 help, and which ones work or didn't work.

[CHCR]

You can get general info from the URLs in this thread - you won't get any more if you don't try it out yourself.

I get that there are a lot of variables in play, but some of us simply don't have the ability to test our systems on multiple browsers. As Dave says, even a general idea in the form of a list would be helpful. As it is now, we're basically being asked to close our eyes, push the button, and wait for our users to blow up the phones if they suddenly can't use our system anymore.

[i-tietz]

As Dave says, even a general idea in the form of a list would be helpful. As it is now, we're basically being asked to close our eyes, push the button, and wait for our users to blow up the phones if they suddenly can't use our system anymore.

Love, that's life! - You make decisions - you live with the consequences.
Without testing I simply wouldn't even think about changing the output format ...

If you cannot test it, then hand it over to the department that does the software testing. Since the help is part of the software, that's what I would do in that case.
Software is tested on a new operating system, too. - And that BEFORE you deliver the software or add the OS to the requirement list. Thinking that help is "just a few HTML pages" with no technical challenges whatsoever, is just WRONG!
Everybody reading even only this thread should have noticed that by now. And if you go and have a look at the "print" output forum you will see even more problems you can run into ...

[rob hollinger]

System Requirements:
http://kb.madcapsoftware.com/default_CSH.htm#IAR1016F

IE8 is supported but there will be some issues with styling as noted earlier.

[NorthEast]

System Requirements:
http://kb.madcapsoftware.com/default_CSH.htm#IAR1016F

IE8 is supported but there will be some issues with styling as noted earlier.

Thanks Rob, that's just what I was looking for.

Supported Web Browsers for HTML5 Output: Internet Explorer 8 or later, Firefox 10 or later, and Google Chrome 13 or later.

[RamonS]

What about Opera, Safari, and Konqueror? They count as well to the top tier. Recommend testing and adding those.

[Sam_2012]

Why not use a cross browser test tool like eggPlant for HTML5 website?