Flare 8 WebHelp on 'lesser' browsers

JezzerP · Post by **JezzerP** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:44 am

We have not upgraded to Flare 8 as yet, but have a general question. If we develop our project using the new HTML5 functionality, and our users view it on a bowser than is not HTML5 compliant, what will be the result? Is there any way to automatically 'downgrade' an output based on what browser is being used? Our problem is that many of our customers are corporate dinosaurs, who take years to upgraded their IT systems, and many may very well be using non-HTML5 compliant browsers. We, on the other hand, being a small software company, can keep up to date with technology, and obviously want our software and help system to look modern.

Post by **LTinker68** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:50 am

I don't know what browsers are HTML5-compliant, but the first suggestion that comes to mind is to take care of which output is installed when your product is installed. Your programmers should be able to build a check into their installer program that determines what version/type of browser being used on the client computer. Depending on the values detected, they then install WebHelp output if the client is using older browsers and HTML5 for newer browsers. Which means you'd have to build both types of outputs to include in the installer.

whunter · Post by **whunter** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:22 am

I haven't gotten Flare 8 yet, but I was going to post the same question. Our help is hosted on an app server, so the install option won't work -- it would need to determine which version to display when the request is made from the client. I would love to check out the HTML5 output, but we have some customers on IE7 so could not make a wholesale change.

Post by **LTinker68** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:03 pm

whunter wrote: -- it would need to determine which version to display when the request is made from the client.

You could perhaps do a landing page on a web server that redirects to the appropriate help depending on which browser that landing page detected. Assuming the help is also hosted from that app server.

nickatwork · Post by **nickatwork** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:30 am

Flare has their online help for version 8 in HTML 5. I'm viewing it on IE8 and it seems ok. There are a couple small things I've noticed but nothing to make it unusable, and its such an improvement on normal webhelp. Best bet is to check it out yourself and see if there are any show stoppers that you can see. It works better on my install of Firefox also. Only thing I want to test is on IE 7 and see what it does.

most likely IE7 wont work.

http://webhelp.madcapsoftware.com/flare8/Default.htm

Dinnit · Post by **Dinnit** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:15 am

Just looked at the Flare 8 help in IE6.

Wish I hadn't because at least 15% - 20% of our users are still on that version - the Search box extends right across the page, and the content does not even load. All I got was a wide sidebar containing the TOC and a big blank for the rest of the screen

i-tietz · Post by **i-tietz** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:21 am

Is that with frames or without?

Dinnit · Post by **Dinnit** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:12 am

With by the looks of it:
By View source:
<iframe id="topic" name="topic" frameBorder="0"></iframe>

i-tietz · Post by **i-tietz** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:34 am

Did you use HTML5 or Webhelp or Webhelp Plus?

If you open the help in the Internet Explorer and you open the menu item Page | Source Code or sth like that (I use the German version, so I don't know), does it resemble this source code?:

Code: Select all

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Frameset//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-frameset.dtd">
<html xmlns:MadCap="http://www.madcapsoftware.com/Schemas/MadCap.xsd" lang="de" xml:lang="de" MadCap:TargetType="WebHelp" MadCap:PathToHelpSystem="./" MadCap:RuntimeFileType="Default" MadCap:HelpSystemFileName="Default.xml" MadCap:PathToSkinFolder="Data/Skinwebhelpdummy/" MadCap:InPreviewMode="False">
    <head>
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" />
        <title>WebHelp</title>
        <script type="text/javascript">
/* <![CDATA[ */
if ( window.name != "_MCWebHelpCSH" )	// window.name might already be set to "_MCWebHelpCSH" from a CSH call
{
	window.name = "MCWebHelp";
}
/* ]]> */
</script>
        <script id="MCGlobals" type="text/javascript">/*<![CDATA[*/var gSubsystemFile = "Default.xml";
var gSkinFolder = "Data/Skinwebhelpdummy/";
var gSkinTemplateFolder = "Skin/";
var gDefaultStartTopic = "Content/start.htm";
/*]]>*/</script>
        <script type="text/javascript" src="Content/SkinSupport/MadCapAll.js">
        </script>
    </head>
    <frameset rows="28, *" border="1" framespacing="0">
        <frame name="mctoolbar" title="Toolbar" src="Skin/Toolbar.htm" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" noresize="noresize" />
        <frameset border="4" framespacing="2" cols="200, *">
            <frame name="navigation" title="Navigation" src="Skin/Navigation.htm" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" onresize="frames['navigation'].SetIFrameHeight();" />
            <frame name="body" title="Topic" frameborder="1" src="Skin/Blank.htm" />
        </frameset>
    </frameset>
</html>

Important are the "<frameset ... " and "<frame ..." bits closer to the bottom.

Post by **RamonS** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:16 pm

Dinnit wrote:Just looked at the Flare 8 help in IE6.
Wish I hadn't because at least 15% - 20% of our users are still on that version

Not that it helps, but Microsoft is telling everyone and then some for years to ditch IE6. It is ancient, it is unsafe, and always was a crap browser that never worked right and did plenty of things differently than everybody else. Really, the best advice is to throw IE6 in the digital trash...otherwise live with the consequences.

nickatwork · Post by **nickatwork** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:01 am

Unfortunately in the corporate environment soo many people are still on IE6.

i-tietz · Post by **i-tietz** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:15 am

Make it a software requirement!

It's perfectly normal for software to have requirements like specific versions of operating systems. Nobody would even try to install a software under Windows XP if it's not on the list. The help is a part of the software and has requirements, too.
If a software won't run under an old OS anymore it means that customers have to switch all their computers to a new OS. Sometimes that even means buying new hardware. - That is asked FAR MORE than downloading and installing a free software ...

crdmerge · Post by **crdmerge** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:26 am

IE is so far behind the curve, unfortunately!

For example, IE 8 finally supports the ::before and ::after pseudo-elements unless users enable the Compatibility View option (which essentially turns IE 8 into IE 7)! In 2005, Richard York ("Beginning CSS: Cascading Style Sheets for Web Design") specifically stated that these pseudo-elements were documented in CSS 3 and supported in Mozilla 1.7, Opera 7.5, and Safari 1.2, but not in IE 6 (the current version at that time, release date for IE 6 SP2 was August 25, 2004). So it took Microsoft from August 2004 until May 27, 2010 (IE 8 Release to Manufacturing) to add this support, but only in full IE 8 view. (They apparently ignored this css in IE 7, released October 18, 2006.)

How many other formatting issues in your doc set will be impacted, whether or not you stay with regular WebHelp output or actually go to WebHelp 2.0 (HTML5)? I would do some serious testing, if I were you, especially if you're using dynamic options such as popups, drop-downs, glossary terms, css positioning, complex nested tables, etc. The latest test results I've seen on the web show IE 9 with a 39% CSS support level (all other browsers range from 56% to 62%), so be aware! (There are unsubstantiated rumors that IE 10 will approach the 60% mark. Really?)

So, Inge, requiring IE 8 (as we do in our current product version) is nullified for every user that enables Compatibility View. Sigh...

Good luck,
Leon

Post by **RamonS** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:40 am

nickatwork wrote:Unfortunately in the corporate environment soo many people are still on IE6.

And now the corporate environments deservedly suffer from the one-sightedness of IE-only development. Consider this the cost of doing business with Microsoft.

i-tietz · Post by **i-tietz** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:51 am

There's also browser settings or OS settings or interfering software like firewalls and anti-virus-packages or browsers plugins/addons.
And all that for each browser software in each version.

And web pages using HTML 5 is very probably a rich new spring of new problems.

You will never be able to list 100% of the requirements - welcome to enjoying the sweets of producing web pages!

i-tietz · Post by **i-tietz** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:00 am

RamonS wrote:from the one-sightedness of IE-only development.

???? You're talking about little rat-shops, right?
You will never get rid of them ... people who think they know are available anytime anywhere.

I think there was never room for counting on IE only - at least not if you're a pro.
10 to 15 years ago the big competitor was Netscape, then Mozilla took that role and now it seems Chrome is well on the way to gain a big part of the market ... you better take that into account when producing webhelp.

Post by **RamonS** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:15 am

There were also big rat shops who did IE6-only development. What really needs to be taken into account are the standards. Unfortunately, neither browser adheres to them and even with HTML5, which currently is not an approved and finished standard, the implementations are incomplete and vary wildly. One reason why RIA frameworks like Flash won't go away.

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