Flare 8 Ribbon debate

[Centauri27]

One of the new touted features of Flare 8 is the ribbon interface...love it or hate it.

I have to admit that I still have mixed feelings about the ribbon in MS Office 2007--I still curse it half the time. Now I'm afraid I'll be doing the same thing for Flare. Yes, I realize I can switch back to the old menus, but I'm really trying to learn it and like it. But here is a very basic task that has stumped me thus far, even after two concerted attempts to find it in the ribbon--where the heck is the "View > Show" equivalent? I'm just trying to turn off the markers. I've sifted through every ribbon option...twice...but it still eludes me. I'm obviously missing something.

On a similar note, does any one know if MadCap is offering a "cheat sheet" or equivalent to help us with the transition? Microsoft eventually created a slick Flash-based mini-app to visually show how to find all the old commands in the new ribbon. I don't expect MadCap to offer such slickness, but anything will help. Right now, Flare 8 hasn't enhanced anything for me other than anxiety levels.

[RamonS]

The transition guide back to a functional UI that makes you productive is to switch to the menu strip. I detailed many times why the ribbon is just bad design on so many levels. Don't waste your time on learning it when the menu is just a few clicks away. I am sure you have better things to do than to assimilate to a flawed UI design.

[Centauri27]

Yes, I am sorely tempted to do this. But seeing how MadCap (like Microsoft) sees the ribbon as the way of the future, I will at least put an attempt at learning it. There are some good points about it, even though it may be flawed fundamentally.

[whunter]

To turn off markers, there's an icon in the topic file toolbar that looks like an eye with two brackets behind it (starting on the right side, the second icon in). I believe this is the same place it was in previous versions (I don't know whether it was also in the menu area before).

[RamonS]

Yes, I am sorely tempted to do this. But seeing how MadCap (like Microsoft) sees the ribbon as the way of the future, I will at least put an attempt at learning it. There are some good points about it, even though it may be flawed fundamentally.

Without people using it and users protesting against it there is no future. And the protest may not even be verbal or direct. For both business and private I no longer use MS Office for exactly that reason. OpenOffice not only has a well-designed menu structure, it even works better for the tasks that I need to accomplish.
Just because Microsoft cooked this up doesn't mean it is awesome and we, the users, have to follow. There are options and Microsoft will change once the influx of cash draws down. Companies like Microsoft don't react to arguments or facts, they only listen to the noise the change makes.

[i-tietz]

Without people using it and users protesting against it there is no future. And the protest may not even be verbal or direct. For both business and private I no longer use MS Office for exactly that reason. OpenOffice not only has a well-designed menu structure, it even works better for the tasks that I need to accomplish.
Just because Microsoft cooked this up doesn't mean it is awesome and we, the users, have to follow. There are options and Microsoft will change once the influx of cash draws down. Companies like Microsoft don't react to arguments or facts, they only listen to the noise the change makes.

No they don't. Ever visited their forum "Answers"? I did. I have problems with MS Office 2010 and Windows 7 and tried to find solutions there ...
Only to find that there are plenty of other users who have the same problems - since 2007 (Office 2007) and since 2009 (Win 7). There are threads which are hundreds of posts long, but MS isn't moving. Almost every day I install Win 7 updates but none of my Win 7 problems has been solved.

So I use Total Commander for searching, Classic Shell for navigating and always get furious when I have to open more than one picture and have to acknowledge the software for each single file although the opening software is always the same ...

As for Flare 8:
We just decided not to update and with another version like that we might even cancel the support plan and have a very close look at the new versions before buying one of them.

[RamonS]

No they don't. Ever visited their forum "Answers"? I did. I have problems with MS Office 2010 and Windows 7 and tried to find solutions there ...
Only to find that there are plenty of other users who have the same problems - since 2007 (Office 2007) and since 2009 (Win 7). There are threads which are hundreds of posts long, but MS isn't moving. Almost every day I install Win 7 updates but none of my Win 7 problems has been solved.

So I use Total Commander for searching, Classic Shell for navigating and always get furious when I have to open more than one picture and have to acknowledge the software for each single file although the opening software is always the same ...

As for Flare 8:
We just decided not to update and with another version like that we might even cancel the support plan and have a very close look at the new versions before buying one of them.

Yes, I visited the MS forums and know about the massive complaints, but these complaints come after people bought a license. At that point Microsoft already has their money and no longer cares. And that's my point, as long as folks keep buying Microsoft there will be no change. Stop buying it and the attitude will change.

I use Classic Shell as well, absolutely excellent addition that makes W7 usable as XP is. It is also well maintained and the developer is very responsive. As for file explorers I tried EF Commander Free, which is good, but I like the free version of xplorer² better. Both give you access to the folders that Microsoft claims you don't need access to. That would be OK if that didn't include the folders that store tons of temp files that crappy apps don't bother to clean up. I have Total Commander on my Portable Apps drive, but don't use it that often.

As far as Flare is concerned, I think the developers should have spent the time on something better than the ribbon, but I must state that I am very pleased that MadCap decided to retain the menu structure, although it is somewhat cumbersome to find the options where the preference can be changed. I also would have made the meu strip the default with the ribbon being optional, but I guess then nobody would use that.

[crdmerge]

Gotta love that Quick Access toolbar! It's like a Super Tab, tailored to my workflow. Woo-hoo!

Now, has anyone tried the Ribbon shortcuts (press Alt and then select the letters and numbers that appear in little grey boxes on the Ribbon)? I'm arguing with Flare support (Case 34302) about their lack of consistency (the Quick Access "numbers" rarely work, you can't get the tab "letters" in the active tab, only on tabs you navigate to, you occasionally have to click with the mouse to nudge the process along, etc.).


Good luck,
Leon

[i-tietz]

Gotta love that Quick Access toolbar! It's like a Super Tab, tailored to my workflow. Woo-hoo!

Wait until your layout is ruined and the QAT is gone and you have to rebuild it - that's what I had to do three times last week. The window layout also doesn't save the position of closed tool windows. They are always opened in the default position. Flare 7 worked fine there.
This week I went back to Flare 7.

Now, has anyone tried the Ribbon shortcuts (press Alt and then select the letters and numbers that appear in little grey boxes on the Ribbon)?

http://forums.madcapsoftware.com/viewto ... ALT#p81196 : What you described there happens to me, too.

[i-tietz]

And: No, I did not report all of the things that went wrong, because I'm not paid for testing Flare ...
The developers are supposed to do some testing, there's a QA department and there's beta testers ... strange how such a lot of bugs make it to the published version and the normal user.

[Centauri27]

I sat in on the Flare 8 webinar a few weeks ago and Mike Hamilton explained that the reason they went with the ribbon was to address the "perception" that Flare was "hard to learn". He also went on to say how taken aback they were by the amount of cynicism they've encountered over the ribbon, with the common refrain that MadCap went with the ribbon to sell more product. Well of course they're trying to sell more product! I'd say the real common refrain, which MadCap is probably loathe to admit, is that they simply decided to copy Microsoft. But still, I give them kudos for keeping the old menus around--this is something I wish MS did for Word et al.

[RossF]

A very simple solution to effectively nullify the "Ugh!" factor for existing users who may not like the ribbon is to have the software ask a one-off question when first loading V8 or newer to users who have earlier versions already installed - "Would you like to use the new Ribbon or legacy Toolbar?". Most people would have already decided their preference, having used M$ products.

That being said, at least we have the choice... but its all in the presentation and perception. The more you can steer that in a positive direction, the better. Negativity was firmly entrenched by the time I encountered the option to turn it off. Extra mouse clicks to do the same things that I have always been doing is not the way to win me over.

[RamonS]

I sat in on the Flare 8 webinar a few weeks ago and Mike Hamilton explained that the reason they went with the ribbon was to address the "perception" that Flare was "hard to learn". He also went on to say how taken aback they were by the amount of cynicism they've encountered over the ribbon, with the common refrain that MadCap went with the ribbon to sell more product. Well of course they're trying to sell more product! I'd say the real common refrain, which MadCap is probably loathe to admit, is that they simply decided to copy Microsoft. But still, I give them kudos for keeping the old menus around--this is something I wish MS did for Word et al.

Flare IS hard to learn, not because it is difficult to use, but there is so much to Flare and a HAT in general when comparing it to Word. I fail to see where the ribbon improves ease of use, if anything, it makes it even more difficult, because the ribbon is difficult to use by design as it removes a lot of features that make UIs easy to use (especially spatial relationships). Since it is only intended to address a perception then I guess it is OK to employ a deception to do so.
MadCap exposed itself to the same ridicule like any other software company that prouds itself by adding the ribbon as a new feature. The perception of that is at the same level as selling the redesign of the About box as a new feature. Also, the ribbon opposition is much more vocal than the ribbon fanbois, with the majority of users having no opinion or not knowing how / wanting to speak up.
Yes, MadCap made the right decision to keep the functional menu structure around as an option, which makes any debate about the ribbon a moot point except that switching the preference is difficult initially, mainly due to the dysfunctionality of the ribbon.

[LTinker68]

I fail to see where the ribbon improves ease of use, if anything, it makes it even more difficult, because the ribbon is difficult to use by design as it removes a lot of features that make UIs easy to use (especially spatial relationships).

I'd like to hear from any new Flare users who only came on board with Flare v8 and the ribbon to see what their impressions are of it. If they have no previous experience with Flare, does the ribbon make things easier or harder from their perspective, or does it have no noticeable impact to them since it's absorbed with learning how to use Flare?

Most of the negative complaints I've seen have been from people who've used Flare in the past (and the complaints about the MS Office ribbon have been from people who've used earlier versions of Office, not new users). So I'm really curious about what new users who start with the ribbon think of it.

Any new v8 users care to weigh in on the discussion?

[Nita Beck]

I second Lisa's call to have new Flare users weigh in.

FWIW, I've been using Flare since V1.0, and I like the ribbon -- in conjunction with the Quick Access Toolbar -- a lot. It has not taken me long to adapt to it. I also commend MadCap for including an option for switching back to the "classic" toolbars, for those who don't like ribbons.

[LKupka]

Lisa, I don't fit the profile you're looking for (I've used Flare since V3.2), but I want to describe my experience with the ribbon anyway.

Until Flare 8, I was one of those who resisted upgrading MS Office because of the ribbon. When Flare 8 came out, I decided to try the Flare ribbon. I was really surprised how much I liked it, and how much easier it was for me to find options than looking through a long list of menu options. Because of Flare 8, I upgraded my MS Office Suite to 2010, and I wish I had upgraded much sooner. I prefer graphics to text and my eyes can scan and find the icons easier than they can text. And I also think it's great that Flare gives users the option of switching to the toolbars.

I'm just sharing my experience, not negating others' experiences with the ribbon.

[RamonS]

I prefer graphics to text and my eyes can scan and find the icons easier than they can text.

Really? That is odd, because the past 40 years of user interface research come to the exact opposite conclusion, which was backed up by findings of neurobiologists. The standard human can decipher text much quicker than images, which on ribbons are often similar.
What would save the ribbon to a large extent if the icons and text stayed in the same spot no matter what you do in the app, but the constant shape shifting no longer allows for subconscious automatism where the connection between action X and "three over and five down" is given. That goes out the door when for doing the same thing it is "three over and five down" in one spot, but in a different context it is "five over and three down". And that is incredibly important, because standard humans can relate to locations even quicker than they can decipher text or images.
Another benefit would have been to remove all text, which makes i18n a small issue or none at all, but the ribbon is mainly the first level of all menus expanded and plastered with images that take up a lot of space and increase optical noise. The result is larger user fatigue.

Now, why again is the ribbon supposedly so superior?

[Nita Beck]

Ramon, with the utmost respect for you as a fellow Flare user and a valued forum expert, you are being rude, as evidenced by your very negative response to LKupka's even-handed comment in the "Great Ribbon Debate." You have been fuming against the Ribbon for weeks. You have that right. And your viewpoint give us a lot to think about. But others have the right to express their liking for the Ribbon, including why. I take LKupka's comment at her word: She finds the Ribbon easier on the eye than the "classic" toolbars and overall easy to use.

[crdmerge]

New Flare user (last May with Flare 7), limited usage of Ribbon in Word, now a Ribbon convert (primarily because of the Quick Access toolbar). Frankly, if the QA toolbar were available with the menu bar, I might not have switched!


Leon

[whunter]

I'm not a new user. But in general I like the Ribbon interface. I was fine with the old interface too, so I don't have a rabid preference toward either one. Occasionally I am slighly annoyed when I have to move to another tab to do something, but on the flip side the Ribbon makes it easier for me to find and use features that I use infrequently and I could never remember which icon they were on the old interface. Generally my experience with v8 has been quite positive -- I've had none of the weird UI issues that others have reported, for example. Though I think part of my satisfaction with it is that I went from v6 to v8, so I am also getting to use the v7 features for the first time. If I was going from v7 to v8 I probably would not be quite so excited about it.

[RamonS]

Nita - My intention was not to be rude and I apologize especially to LKupka if it was received that way.

[Nita Beck]

My intention was not to be rude and I apologize especially to LKupka if it was received that way.

Thank you, friend.

[i-tietz]

So:
- Mouse jostlers CAN be better off with the ribbons, but not necessarily, since there are toolbars in the menu GUI.
- Keyboard pushers are better off with the menues.
- The QAT - if it works - is something good, because it allows customization ... but the toolbars in the menu GUI could be made customizable by MC, too - just like they were in MS Office up to 2003 ...

[abaldwin11]

I started using Flare just before the update, and I find the Ribbon quite easy to use because of that. I hated when Microsoft when to the Ribbon because I was so used to the other design. Since I wasn't used to Flare as well as others the Ribbon was quite nice to see. I like that I do have the option to switch back to original way but I won't worry about switching back. So if there was a vote I would vote to keep the Ribbon. The only complaint I have about 8 is that I noticed that it has slowed down for me, but that has already been discussed.

I fail to see where the ribbon improves ease of use, if anything, it makes it even more difficult, because the ribbon is difficult to use by design as it removes a lot of features that make UIs easy to use (especially spatial relationships).

I'd like to hear from any new Flare users who only came on board with Flare v8 and the ribbon to see what their impressions are of it. If they have no previous experience with Flare, does the ribbon make things easier or harder from their perspective, or does it have no noticeable impact to them since it's absorbed with learning how to use Flare?

Most of the negative complaints I've seen have been from people who've used Flare in the past (and the complaints about the MS Office ribbon have been from people who've used earlier versions of Office, not new users). So I'm really curious about what new users who start with the ribbon think of it.

Any new v8 users care to weigh in on the discussion?

[SteveS]

So:
- Mouse jostlers CAN be better off with the ribbons, but not necessarily, since there are toolbars in the menu GUI.
- Keyboard pushers are better off with the menues.
- The QAT - if it works - is something good, because it allows customization ... but the toolbars in the menu GUI could be made customizable by MC, too - just like they were in MS Office up to 2003 ...

...and in Office 2010...

Albeit the ability to create and customise tabs.