WebHelp in Desktop Window? - Recommendations

[colinn]

Hi, thanks for looking,
I’m curious and seeking comments. Microsoft allows web based help within their desktop Help Viewer. I work almost exclusively in WebHelp and was wondering:

1. How to get my WebHelp into Microsoft’s Viewer OR (better still)
2. A recommended desktop WebHelp Viewer.
3. A way to manipulate the browser window to set dimension and position (just like using javascript does in popup windows) but with the simple add-on of keeping the window ‘always on top’.

I can’t find a simple solution so I’m assuming that there are security issues when not using the native browser? Is there something I’m missing? I've looked into Zinc and Adobe Air, displaying web based content, but both seem have the potential to trigger security issues with products like Norton’s Internet Security.

Thanks again,

Colinn

[RamonS]

The best way to do this is to create a form within the application that includes a browser object. That way you have full control over size and z-order as well as what users can do with the browser. Talk to the developers, they should be able to put that together in a day or less.

[colinn]

Thanks RamonS,

However, this Help is not for a specialist application being built, but for use with Word, Excel and PowerPoint. Is such an approach you suggest easy to do outside of a specialist application, and if so, would MadCap be thinking of making one? If not, why not? Thanks again RamonS, I don't mean to be pushy, but my thinking is that it would be a logical step to provide web-based help in some sort of Help Viewer. Every other help has some sort of viewer, why not WebHelp?

Regards,

colinn

[RamonS]

You did not mention Word, Excel, or Powerpoint in your original post nor did you elaborate what kind of application the help is for, so I was left assuming that it is a run of the mill windows forms app that you / your company creates. So this is a plugin for MS Office you are talking about? I don't know if there is a way to seamlessly blend the plug-in help with the MSO help, but I doubt it. If the plug-in has some sort of UI then the solution would likely be the same, include a form with a browser object. Keep in mind that WebHelp does not have to come through the Internet connection, but can also be used directly from the local file system. A browser control on Windows is basically the same as an IE instance and adheres to the system wide Internet / Intranet settings. That means if scripts are disabled across the board you may run into problems. The only way around that might be a CHM.

If I am still on the wrong track you need to provide some more detail as to what you need to do and how you want it to look like. I also have no idea what you mean by "Microsoft’s Viewer". As for recommended WebHelp viewers, any recent version of IE, FF, Chrome, Safari, Opera, Konqueror, etc. should do. And as mentioned before, in order to have full control over the browser window and control z-order you need to stuff into a form, otherwise it is no different than opening a page in a browser, which to Windows is just another app that is independent from the place calling up the page.

[NorthEast]

Is such an approach you suggest easy to do outside of a specialist application, and if so, would MadCap be thinking of making one? If not, why not? Thanks again RamonS, I don't mean to be pushy, but my thinking is that it would be a logical step to provide web-based help in some sort of Help Viewer. Every other help has some sort of viewer, why not WebHelp?

MadCap already do have their own help format and viewer - take a look at Flare's DotNet Help target; it has similar features to WebHelp.

[colinn]

Thanks @Dave, but I don't think the Dot Net Help target is what I'm looking for, but I could be wrong. Can you clarify a couple of things about Dot Net Help for me? Since my help files would be displayed using your Dot Net HelpViewer. Apologies if this part of the post is in the wrong section.

Can the Dot Net target output files be hosted on a web-server?
Can the Dot Net Viewer the use the accordion skin?
Does the DN Viewer have an 'always on top' option to display the DN Viewer on top of all other open windows?

@Ramon, sorry if I've led you down the wrong track. I have a very clear idea in my head about what I'm after. I've done some further research and, depending on the answers to the Dot Net Viewer questions above, I'll be able to provide you with a very clear description.

[i-tietz]

... but my thinking is that it would be a logical step to provide web-based help in some sort of Help Viewer. Every other help has some sort of viewer, why not WebHelp?

Well - it has: it's called "browser". Its charm is that 99,9% (that's my guess) of PCs have one installed. But sometimes you have to keep it simple to have the software (=help) run the majority of them. But yes: You gotta live with the fact that you will probably never reach 100%.
AND: You will need the viewer installed on your PC. With cloud-computing being the up-and-coming technology not a thing you would wish for.

Proprietary viewers exist in a controlled environment and you have much less problems predicting the result, but they have other limits, because you will have to adapt your help to the technical properties of that viewer. Usually you have a limit here and hit the wall there ...

With browsers you can generate a taylor-made viewer, 'cos the browser window can be manipulated to a large extent, you can get searches adapted to almost everything - if you have programmers who know how to do that.

[NorthEast]

Can the Dot Net target output files be hosted on a web-server?
Can the Dot Net Viewer the use the accordion skin?
Does the DN Viewer have an 'always on top' option to display the DN Viewer on top of all other open windows?

- DotNetHelp is not server-based help, you'd need WebHelp or HTML5 help.
- The help viewer uses accordions, but you can't design your own skin. It also has MadCap branding.
- I'm not sure if it has an always on-top option.

It's easy enough to build one of your projects as DotNetHelp and take a look; you just need to install the help viewer.

Is a browser not the easiest solution? You can easily open a browser window without toolbars, etc.; and Flare's skin editor actually has these options built-in.

[i-tietz]

- DotNetHelp is not server-based help, you'd need WebHelp or HTML5 help.
- The help viewer uses accordions, but you can't design your own skin. It also has MadCap branding.

Does it? I remember seeing a Software Development Kit (SDK) to adapt it ... was it in the knowledge base ?

[NorthEast]

- DotNetHelp is not server-based help, you'd need WebHelp or HTML5 help.
- The help viewer uses accordions, but you can't design your own skin. It also has MadCap branding.

Does it? I remember seeing a Software Development Kit (SDK) to adapt it ... was it in the knowledge base ?

Yes, the MadCap help viewer that you can download has MadCap branding.

I'm not sure what you can/can't do with the SDK; but in this case, I thought they don't want to build an application in the first place.
If you're going to build an application, I'd guess it'd be easier to create a simple browser control as RamonS suggested (one of our applications does this).

[i-tietz]

I'm not sure what you can/can't do with the SDK; but in this case, I thought they don't want to build an application in the first place.

I know that colinn probably won't use DOTnet, but I cannot leave a statement uncommented which might be wrong ... but I cannot find the SDK anymore - so I suppose they've taken it off the base.

[RamonS]

Go to http://www.madcapsoftware.com/downloads ... ables.aspx and scroll down to Help Viewer SDK.

[colinn]

Thanks all for your input, but you're right @i-tietz I don't want to use Dot Net Help.

Here's what I do want and why, so I hope you're sitting comfortably...

WebHelp / WebHelp Plus / HTML5 all have one big advantage and one disadvantage over other Help formats:

Advantage: Help files are held on a webserver. Update them once, everyone gets the updates, so there’s nothing for the user to download or install on an ongoing basis.

Disadvantage: When providing help / tutorials to existing desktop based software, like Microsoft Word, browser based help is painful to use; having to switch back and forth between the browser based help and Word.

So the answer from this forum has been to use another format. But I don’t want to. OK maybe that’s pigheaded of me, but please read the rest of my post before you comment. I also don’t want a plug-in or add-on, just a Help Viewer that displays web-based content.

In Office 2007, Microsoft seems to have created a specific Help Viewer that accesses web-based Office 2007 help information.

@RamonS you state that it is unlikely that MS would allow access to view content other than its own in this Viewer.

So, to further elaborate, I’m after a new Help Viewer (Flare output?) that will allow you to:

• Specify a website to display
  Specify the height and width of the Help Viewer window
  Specify the position of the Help Viewer window when it initially loads
  An ‘always on top’ option for the Help Viewer window
  Let Flare do all the heavy lifting (use the existing WebHelp et al outputs to display as the would in a browser)
  Limit the output to the accordion skin (to keep the output displaying nicely in the Viewer)
  I have no need for CSH

I’m assuming that the final output would be an .exe file (or maybe not) that could be distributed to customers only once.

Is there a security issue with this approach?
Too hard to do?
If it is deemed appropriate, would MadCap consider using this approach?

[RamonS]

In Office 2007, Microsoft seems to have created a specific Help Viewer that accesses web-based Office 2007 help information.

@RamonS you state that it is unlikely that MS would allow access to view content other than its own in this Viewer.

So, to further elaborate, I’m after a new Help Viewer (Flare output?) that will allow you to:

• Specify a website to display
  Specify the height and width of the Help Viewer window
  Specify the position of the Help Viewer window when it initially loads
  An ‘always on top’ option for the Help Viewer window
  Let Flare do all the heavy lifting (use the existing WebHelp et al outputs to display as the would in a browser)
  Limit the output to the accordion skin (to keep the output displaying nicely in the Viewer)
  I have no need for CSH

I’m assuming that the final output would be an .exe file (or maybe not) that could be distributed to customers only once.

Is there a security issue with this approach?
Too hard to do?
If it is deemed appropriate, would MadCap consider using this approach?

The help in Office is an IE browser control in a windows form showing ASP based pages. I just tried it out and it is exactly what I suggested originally. With that in place you can
- specify height and width
- specify position
- specify always on top behavior in relation to the currently use Office app, you do NOT want it to be always on top of everything, because that is bloody annoying. The Office help viewer has a button that allows for toggling this
- use any HTML based Flare output, either from local file system or web server => add code to detect online status and fall back to a basic help stored locally
- skin it anyway you want
- do CSH or not

What you can do is distribute the local help with the installer package or use any of the installer apps to create a separate install (would only make it confusing to the end user). Worst case use a self-extracting ZIP archive. As far as creating the form and dropping the code and browser control on it, talk to your developers. They should know how to tie in UI components for an Office plug-in.

The only other idea I have is crafting a PDF. You have less control over size and position, but that is something users can figure out. PDF gives you a ToC and full text search.

As far as MadCap taking any different approach, I don't see why they would craft a specialized viewer and output for Office. VisualStudio already provides the tools for creating COM add-ins for Office and dropping a browser control on a form is trivial for a halfway experienced developer. See here http://support.microsoft.com/kb/302901 and here http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms268878.aspx.

[colinn]

Thanks for the feedback @Ramos.

See this is the problem, you've provided me with a solution, dropping a browser object onto a windows form, but I don’t know any developers, halfway experienced or otherwise. I’m an independent document writer. I love using Flare and thought my idea was at least an interesting one to discuss. Or I hoped it would generate interest enough that MadCap would perhaps consider the idea. Originally I was (and still am) concerned with potential security issues using this approach.

All I want is to display a website in some type of help viewer independent of the full screen browser or manipulate the browser to get what I want. That’s it, no PDF, no CHM, no Office plug-ins or add-ins, no Dot Net Help. Then the 'viewer' can be used for any type of desktop application training / help using all the advantages of Web Help et al.

From my perspective what I want is simple, but I’ll go and purchase Zinc 4.0 or use Freelancer to get a programmer to build it for me and get the results that way. See all I’m after is screen like the following that would be incorporated into Flare:

http://www.multidmedia.com/support/live ... ACpage=104

Anyways, thanks all for your input.

[NorthEast]

All I want is to display a website in some type of help viewer independent of the full screen browser or manipulate the browser to get what I want.

Just to repeat, you can manipulate the browser window to do what you want, or at least everything apart from the "always on top".

You can set the browser window properties when you open it, using either javascript or a Flare CSH call.

- To use a Flare CSH call, set the window settings in the skin: http://webhelp.madcapsoftware.com/flare ... Output.htm
- To use Javascript (window.open): http://www.w3schools.com/jsref/met_win_open.asp

[colinn]

Thanks @Dave Lee, but the main issue with using WebHelp is the browser component coupled with using it for desktop application help.

I need an 'always on top' option.

Without it you have to jump back and forth between the browser and the actual desktop application.

This is not quality help at all. It sucks.

But you make an interesting point. All I appear to need then is a browser control for 'always on top'.

I'll start looking...

[RamonS]

Thanks for the feedback @Ramos.

See this is the problem, you've provided me with a solution, dropping a browser object onto a windows form, but I don’t know any developers, halfway experienced or otherwise. I’m an independent document writer. I love using Flare and thought my idea was at least an interesting one to discuss. Or I hoped it would generate interest enough that MadCap would perhaps consider the idea. Originally I was (and still am) concerned with potential security issues using this approach.

OK, but you are writing the documentation for someone who programs the application, right? Talk to your customer and decide on a solution. Is the help you write context sensitive? If yes, you have to talk to the developers at some point anyway just to hand off the list of map IDs. I can't see any other way to have full control over a browser object. The standard browser application does not expose enough control PLUS you cannot count on a specific browser in a specific configuration to be present on the user's system.
Browser object on a windows form is the way to go and I strongly recommend that you go that route. Worst case get an intro book for whatever programming language your customer uses and program it yourself, then give them the source code. Everything else looks like a waste of time to me, although coding what the customer should provide is already a waste of time.

[colinn]

Hi everyone, it's been a while now since my last post and I thought I'd bring you all up to speed.

But first, let's recap.

1. I'm a technical writer that produces help / training for in-house and commercial (MS Office) desktop based applications.
2. I'm after a way of displaying Webhelp, on the desktop, in some sort of help window that sits on top of all the other windows.

@ RamonS you suggested a form with a browser window embedded in it, much like MS help files that are used for MS Office 2007+.

I have to concede this would be the best approach. Does anyone have a suggested language / code to create such a windows form? I've used MDM Zinc, but it generates antivirus / internet security messages and promptly deletes the exe file produced. Any way to stop these? Or a recommended forum to discuss this further?

The next best would be the manipulation of an existing browser popup window. I've reviewed a number of existing windows software to do this and I like PowerMenu. It works on XP, Vista, 7 and 8, (but not on 64 bit versions) by adding new menu items to the standard control box. So I generate a popup window from a website and the free PowerMenu allows me to choose 'Always on Top' from the control box for that popup. Works well.

[RamonS]

My recommendation is to use the same programming language the application is written in. That window is more an application feature than help content. Talk to the developers or business analyst / product owner.