Flare CRASHED!

[sdcinvan]

Okay, I can put up with finding one bug every two days... I am happy as long as I have a work-around. So far, so good on that front.

But what I cannot accept is unreliable software! Especially software that I staked my reputation on and convinced my company to spend just under $2000 (after being employed for only 1 month).

Yesterday, Flare crashed. I didn't pay too much attention to it because it was the end of the day and I had already backed up. So, no loss...

Today, it just crashed again and all I was doing was editing some content in the XML editor / switching back/forth between the internal text editor and XML editor. I don't recall 'exactly' what I had done at the moment it crashed - I might have been typing or blocking text to change to bold attribute.

I don't wish to blow this out of proportion but I am wondering about this software's reliability. How many others experience crashes, how often do they occur, and what were you doing when Flare crashed?

Thanks.

Flare_crash02.png

[RamonS]

Are there any clues in the system log? What are the specs of your system? What else are you running? Does it work any better when you turn off all the Windows eye candy (enable classic view)? Do you have the latest video card drivers installed? All windows patches installed (Patch Tuesday was a few days ago)? Any reports from virus scanners or the like? Does it crash when you install Flare on a different system?
I'm not saying that Flare is not at fault here (although I put my 2 cents of the craptastic .NET runtime), but the more info we can get the more likely we might figure out what is going on.

[Msquared]

It looks like you're about where I was a year or so ago, also having persuaded my company to pay lots of money for Flare to solve a nightmare single-sourcing problem (three different products and two different output formats, which made six separately maintained outputs).

From the questions you've been asking, you're obviously trying to use Flare to the full, as I did (and still am), and I too found lots of unexpected oddities, and quite a few bugs. I too got rather despondant at one point, but round about then, I got into an email exchange with someone I respect enormously in the Tech Comm community (not about this topic, but something else Flare-related). He said "I'm still a gushing Flare fan", and now, a bit further down the line, I have to agree with him. Life with Flare is far better than life before Flare, but it does take time and commitment to stick with it and learn to live with the idiosyncrasies. I don't regret at all moving my content to Flare.

Remember that Flare isn't Microsoft Word, with a user base of billions worldwide, and a budget and developers to match. Flare is a niche product, with a niche application, loved by many who have come to terms with its occasional rough edges, who welcome the powerful single sourcing facilities, the flexibility of having your content in XML and the superb support and commitment from MadCap. MadCap does listen to the community and the rough edges do get fixed. Flare isn't right for everyone, but I suspect you will find more unhappy users of most other similar products.

And yes, I do have some scenarios where Flare will crash sooner or later . . .

I wonder if this one is like yours? I have reported it (of course). I only started noticing it in Flare 9, and I started with Flare 7.

I have noticed that if I have lots of topics open, and do a bit of work on many of them, sometimes switching between text and XML view, but perhaps not, eventually Flare will crash. This is exactly the scenario you are likely to have if you have just ported some content into Flare, and are flying through lots of topics, checking them, and making minor fixes to many of them.

I don't think it's a memory issue as such - there's no specific number at which Flare struggles to cope, but I do think it may be related to auto-save, which goes on in the background while I'm typing in the foreground. I suspect that sometimes, the two activities clash, and if you have lots of topics open, and do many small (and hence quick) changes, sooner or later, you will reproduce the clash scenario.

I get this crash a few times most days while working with Flare, less frequently if I stop regularly and close a bunch of topics (which of course does an explicit foreground save before closing, if required), and also less frequently if I stop and "Save All" regularly.

The thing that made it go away was when I set File > Options > General > "Close Others when opening new document" to "Close others with same extension". This confirms my suspicion about the root of the clash (no need for background auto-saves with this setting) but I found it too intrusive - I got fed up waiting while each topic was saved and closed before I could see the place I was heading for next. And sometimes I want two topics open to compare them, especially while I'm checking/fixing newly-ported content.

[Nita Beck]

I don't experience Flare's not responding very often. I don't find that it crashes any more than my other programs, with exception of when I'm trying to check in a large set of files.

Marjorie, your comment about Save All is interesting. As soon as I read that, I remember that I habitually click Save All often, like every minute or so! I established that habit long ago, in my RoboHelp days. It's second nature. It's got me wondering if that's a factor in why I don't see many crashes. That and the fact that I typically don't have more than 10 files or so open at any given time. Otherwise my workspace seems to cluttered.

[Msquared]

Hi Nita,

I keep meaning to "Save All" very regularly, but my fingers have other ideas - they keep saying "just this one more edit, then you can Save All". And then it is too late.

I can see my auto-saves happening in the background, as when I'm in fast-and-furious mode, making small changes to lots of files, many of the auto-saves trigger Perforce checkouts, which always announce themselves with a dialog box.

I did wonder if the issue was Perforce-related, so I tried working on an unbound project, and this made no difference. I still saw crashes.

I can't pinpoint one action of mine that causes it, but I've only seen it when I have lots of files open, although I'm beginning to suspect that the number of open files isn't the problem in itself, but it means more auto-saves and hence a better chance of a scenario that causes the crash.

I usually only have lots of files open when I'm tidying imported content, or restructuring something, when I am probably working my through the topics via the TOC, checking, cleaning, reformatting etc. Again, my brain keeps telling me to do a "Close all documents except this one" every so often, but my fingers are disobedient.

[sdcinvan]

Thanks everyone!

My post on Friday was a bit more reactionary than my comfortable level. Usually, I say think than post.

On the other hand, three weeks in, six bug reports, and two crashes led to question the stability of Flare 9.11.

Thank you for the tips. I will definitely start saving more frequently.

In regards to the type of environment I run... it is a pretty spartan Windows 7, 64bit OS with 16Gb of RAM and plenty of disk space. The only simultaneously run programs are MadCap Capture, Word 2013, NotePad ++, Notepad, Firefox, Everything, GoToMeeting, Google Sync, Box Sync, Adobe Creative Cloud, and YChat (IRQ).

If the crashes continue, I will try to find time to investigate the system log, drivers, etc. For now, I must focus on getting my work done.

[NorthEast]

My experience with Flare to date (from v2) is that it's the only application I use that I expect to crash/hang.

It's not as bad as it used to be; it used to happen twice a day in older versions, and now happens about once/twice a week in v9.
In older versions, I would also deliberately close/reopen Flare 2-3 times a day, as it had memory leak issues.

I've rarely suffered any real problems from crashes though, mainly because I save regularly. Flare has never corrupted any data, only its Analyzer database which can be deleted.

One thing I find that can reliably crash Flare is to use FAR (an external find/replace tool) to edit a large number topics in an open project.

[sdcinvan]

Hello Dave,

My experience with Flare to date (from v2) is that it's the only application I use that I expect to crash/hang.

That is similar to what I told MadCap support. Although it is still a little early (I've only used Flare for four weeks now), those two software crashes last week were the first software crashes I have experienced in a very long time (perhaps years). Good software, on a properly configured/virus free computer, very rarely (if at all) crash.

With all due respect to whomever stated that MadCap is a small company and they don't have the resources to make software that is as stable as a billion user product like Microsoft Word... I disagree with that statement. By that logic, products with very small budgets, like Open Office, Kolor's Panaramic products, Audacity, etc. should be very unstable; which is not the case.

I'll be giving Flare another week of intense workouts. Let's see what happens... fingers crossed.

[sdcinvan]

Just a little tip... because I purchased an expensive support contract, I am maintaining a spreadsheet to log all my support issues. With this, I can determine the effectiveness of MadCap support and its value on the contract's anniversary.

The spreadsheet records the following data:
Date - The date of the issue submission
Case # - Case # automatically assigned (serving dual purpose, I enter "Forum" in this column, if I ask the community instead of submitting a ticket)
Description - Basic or specific description of issue
CS contact - The CS person assigned to your issue
Effectiveness - On scale of 1-10, how helpful the CS person was
Res. Days - Number of days required to solve the issue (don't count weekends or when issue is submitted towards end of day)
Emails - Number of emails to/from (revealing especially when you need to explain the issue many times)
Self-resolved - If self-resolved, on what date - I don't stop looking for my own solution when I submit an issue
Bug? - If issue is a bug, what is the bug #?
Feature req - If issue is turned into a feature request, what is the #?
Other Notes - Any other relevant notes - If resolved in the forum, I will name the forum member in this column.

[Msquared]

Yesterday I did "Save All" at a rate that would put Nita to shame, and for the first time since upgrading to Flare 9, I didn't have a single crash! That seems to be the key. If you Save All often enough, you don't get the crashes, which I suppose means you don't need to worry about doing Save All so frequently to avoid losing work.

I also tried to close topics regularly, but I still had lots open on occasions - I'm tidying up a particular nightmare of an imported document with bits that should be single-sourced all over the place. Now that's what I love about Flare!

[whunter]

FWIW, I have never had crashing issues with Flare, but I also "Save All" constantly. I don't even think about it, it's just something my hands do automatically when I stop typing.

[Msquared]

Boo. Twice so far today. Just waiting for Flare to start again now. I'm obviously not doing Save All often enough, although by this time earlier in the week, I'd had half a dozen crashes.

[sdcinvan]

Boo. Twice so far today. Just waiting for Flare to start again now. I'm obviously not doing Save All often enough, although by this time earlier in the week, I'd had half a dozen crashes.

Wow, this is not good Marjorie.

Do you recall [exactly] what you were doing at the time of each crash? Also what other problems were running? I am trying to determine if there is a pattern to the crashes.

My two crashes occurred while I was editing text in the XML editor or when I was editing in the Text editor. It likely crashed during my constant shifting between the two editors.

[Msquared]

Editing fast and furiously, as always. Saving reasonably regularly. Occasional switches between XML and text editors, but not usually immediately before the crash. I am checking and tidying up a newly imported, newly-single-sourced project, so I'm whizzing around topics, mainly via the TOC.

I've had plenty of opportunity to think about what I'm doing, when I get a crash (plenty of crashes) and I think it's just editing, mainly adding/deleting text, usually in the XML editor immediately before the crash. The crash is just the "MAdCap Flare has stopped working" dialog box.

I have 69 files so far in my pending checkin list today, so I've been busy (it is 6pm here, though!).

Also what other problems were running?

LOL. Lots, as always, but up to Flare 8 that was never a problem. Here's my list (most of them would be just sitting there though, not actively doing stuff)

I'm running 64 bit WIndows 7 and

Windows Explorer X2
IE
Outlook
Word X 2
Perforce Windows Client
Notepad++
OneNote
Remote Desktop to one of our application servers
Snagit Editor (and Snagit in the background of course)
Skype (inactive)
Acrobat X2
Our VPN client software (working from home today, but this happens at work as well)

This is just a typical day's work for me, both in terms of the number of things I have open and the number of crashes since Flare 9. I reported it as soon as I realised there was a problem, but I don't think MadCap support believe me. I have .NET 4.5 - that could well be part of the problem. I know our developers have problems with it too.

It would be good if someone could tell me where to look to get system log information - if it's a .NET triggered crash, there may be something helpful recorded somewhere. I just don't know my way round the Windows system stuff well enough to know where to look. Perhaps someone can tell me?

[sdcinvan]

Ha ha... I erroneously asked, "Also what other problems were running?"

I was thinking, "what other problems are you experiencing?" simultaneously with the thought, "what other programs are you running?"

Don't hold your breath for finding anything revealing in the system logs but this is how to find them:

From the Start (or whatever used to be called the start button) bubble, type: compmgmt.msc in the Search Programs and Files box click on the found file of same name.

OR

From desktop, right click on the Computer icon and click on Manage.
Open the lists to System Tools\Event Viewer\Windows LogsThe databases Application and System will have the most information. There are also filters that can be set to search for specific events, etc. There is a ton of information stored here.

SystemLogs.png

[Msquared]

Here you are. My two Flare crashes today both look like this, a .NET crash, followed by Flare. As I suspected. .NET has something to do with it.

What do yours look like? Perhaps we should make a joint representation to MadCap with our logs.

[sdcinvan]

Definitely the Flare .net framework.

You know, MadCap support didn't even ask for any Windows log files when I reported my two crashes.


Faulting application name: Flare.exe, version: 9.1.1.0, time stamp: 0x51b16698
Faulting module name: KERNELBASE.dll, version: 6.1.7601.18229, time stamp: 0x51fb1116
Exception code: 0xe0434352
Fault offset: 0x0000c41f
Faulting process id: 0x1044
Faulting application start time: 0x01ceb08d43eededc
Faulting application path: D:\Program Files (x86)\MadCap Software\MadCap Flare V9\Flare.app\Flare.exe
Faulting module path: C:\Windows\syswow64\KERNELBASE.dll
Report Id: 8cdec119-1cc6-11e3-9ef9-005056c00008

System
- Provider
[ Name] Application Error
- EventID 1000
[ Qualifiers] 0
Level 2
...

----------

Application: Flare.exe
Framework Version: v4.0.30319
Description: The process was terminated due to an unhandled exception.
Exception Info: System.Runtime.InteropServices.COMException
Stack:
at System.Runtime.InteropServices.Marshal.ThrowExceptionForHRInternal(Int32, IntPtr)
at System.Runtime.InteropServices.Marshal.ThrowExceptionForHR(Int32, IntPtr)
...

System
- Provider
[ Name] .NET Runtime
- EventID 1026
[ Qualifiers] 0
Level 2
...

----------

Fault bucket 3730465764, type 5
Event Name: CLR20r3
Response: Not available
Cab Id: 0

Problem signature:
P1: flare.exe
P2: 9.1.1.0
P3: 51b16698
P4: mscorlib
P5: 4.0.0.0
P6: 517a1c71
P7: 3cbf
P8: 4
P9: PSZQOADHX1U5ZAHBHOHGHLDGIY4QIXHX
P10:

[Msquared]

MadCap support have raised a bug report for this. It is 79915.

But they have asked that others continue to report the problem if they come across it, as they prefer to continue to receive evidence.

[sdcinvan]

MadCap support have raised a bug report for this. It is 79915.

But they have asked that others continue to report the problem if they come across it, as they prefer to continue to receive evidence.

I have asked support to watch this thread. Never received acknowledgement. Do they ever? Do MadCap employees ever contribute to this forum? I don't think I have ever seen a post or response from an employee.

[sdcinvan]

I reported my crash experience on 20130916, issue#52081, and Conrad acknowledged it but did not submit it as a bug report.

I'm going to reopen it and request that my issue be attached to the same bug report you posted... 79915.

Thank you.

[LTinker68]

Do MadCap employees ever contribute to this forum?

Occasionally one of the support guys will jump in with a comment, but it's not the main avenue for them for receiving bugs or feature requests. The online forms are the best way of getting info to support.

[Msquared]

Hi sdcinvan

Support are reluctant to raise a bug report against every unreproducible scenario, as there is little that the developers will be able to do to fix it if the details are very vague. I originally reported my issue as a crash when I had lots of topics open, as that seemed to be the trigger, whereas, after some discussion on this thread, I think we have collectively realised it's related to background auto-saves, which of course are more likely when you have lots of topics open and are making small changes in many of them.

Support originally told me that they had opened 90 topics and couldn't reproduce the problem, which was reasonable given the initial scenario I reported, but as a result of comments from several others, we now have more info. That's why I was able to get back to them with more evidence, including the contents of your log. I referred them to this thread and asked them to raise a bug report as others had observed the problem too, and had collected more evidence. That's the forums working as they should. We are community, and long may it continue!

I'm glad you started the post, as collectively we have identified a problem more quickly than any single Flare user would have done.

I started with Flare 7, and I've only seen this problem in Flare 9.1.1. My guess is that it will turn out to be something to do with .NET 4.5, which dates from around the same time, and is a real headache for developers - mine have been tearing their hair out over it on occasions.

[rob hollinger]

Please open a case with support if you are experiencing these crashes.
https://www.madcapsoftware.com/feedback/bugs.aspx

It would help to send in your crash logs but before doing that, please clear them first to reduce the size.
Once they are cleared and you receive a crash, please send them to us.
Please let us know what version of .NET you have installed.
Is your project tied to Source Control?
Click File > Options
In each of the tabs there are settings we may need to know about
Does turning off suggestions and analyzer options help?
Does turning off the text rendering in the XML Editor tab help?

The more information the better when attempting to locate and isolate the causes of these issues.

There were issues with the release of .Net 4.5, but we are certain we were able to resolve them.

[sdcinvan]

Thank you for responding Rob. Nice to know that we are being 'watched'.

[rob hollinger]

Folks,
We do want to figure this out. After some discussion there are a few things we need when this happens.
We need the Crash information and the Crash details for both the .NET Runtime and the Flare Application (See screen shot).
Once we can narrow this down and replicate it in-house, we will find a fix ASAP.

Thank you for your continued support and patience while we work together to figure this out.
Open a support case or Open a bug:
http://www.madcapsoftware.com/support/