Whose help is this anyway?

[mikejp]

Seems to me that MadCap have expended a great deal of effort on WebHelp, but that the chm and print targets aren't there. Indeed, Flare has the rather old-Word-like qualites of having features that work fine individually (but fail in concert in messy ways), and having some rather basic stuff apparently MIA.

DotNet could \"help\" make chm history, but NOT within the framework of the current viewer. It doesn't matter if I can see the potential. The people who write the cheques, including my pay-cheque, only see the deliverables.

I don't care whether MadCap fixes HTML Help or DotNot Help (especially the viewer) first, but one of these is surely due.

[RamonS]

A lot in \"HTML Help\" (that help being HTML is like me saying I'm fluent in french) is limited and decided by the Microsoft Windows viewer. So MadCap's or anyone's input for that matter is limited. Besides that, Microsoft announced that they will discontinue development and support for the CHM viewer. Add to that the problems that XPSP2 and now IE7 introduce for CHM. To me, CHMs are dead.
MadCap should spent their energy on the DotNetHelp viewer for the time being. Seems as if .NET is a goner soon as well.

[Diane]

Seems as if .NET is a goner soon as well.

Would you explain this statement, please?

Thanks.

[RamonS]

There isn't a public announcement I can point to, but there are several clear indicators. Here are a few:
Microsoft's own developers did not base any new applications for Vista on the .NET framework. If .NET is here to stay in the long term that decision wouldn't have made any sense as the selected development platform is by far more difficult than using a .NET based approach.
.NET is hampered by the same systematic disadvantages as Java, mainly those that were cause for bashing by MS in the past decade. .NET apps tend to be slow and require that the mammouth runtime is present, even when only a small part is used.
.NET is actively transitioned to other operating systems. One example is Mono for Linux. Agreed, the implementations are not the same as the real thing, but once they reach a sufficient level of capability one can use Microsoft's IDEs to easily develop applications for other OS. Hardly anything Microsoft is interested in and the only way out is to switch platforms every five to six years.
The kill-off of VB6 against the demands of thousands of developers was a success in the end. Developers were forced to buy new IDEs from Microsoft. That precedence shows that intentional discontinuation of established platforms is a money maker for quasi monopolists. Since Microsoft still makes among the best IDEs for developers it is pretty sure that even those who are bitter about the VB6 decision still go with Microsoft. Developers don't like changing IDEs and many of them are die hard loyalists. Führer give orders, we follow! Besides that, as long as Microsoft holds the de facto monopoly on the desktop (and browser) market, developers are forced to develop applications for the most common target systems. As long as consumers and developers are collectively stupid Microsoft might as well milk that cow as long as it moos.
Microsoft announced some time ago to combine IIS and MS SQL server into one product in the future. That makes sense since more and more applications depart the fat client approach in favor of browser based solutions. The most applications can or have to make use of a database backend. That all doesn't indicate that there is a lot of money to be made with development tools that are designed for fat client development. Add to that the fact that it took the biggest software maker of the world over five years to release a new, stripped down version of its OS - and that after being in the OS market for way over 20 years. A shift towards server only systems for browser based applications with development tools optimized for that setting is a likely business model to develop during the next years. The current .NET clearly does not fit that picture.

I give .NET less than four years until is is discontinued.

[mikejp]

Ramon's impressions are not mine. Based on the presentations I've seen, upcoming Team System and Expression tools seem to be predicated on .NET3.

It's clear that help has to move on from .chm and may become embedded. MadCap's DotNet could be useful, if only the stepping-stone of an acceptable-to-marketing, multi-lingual viewer were in place to demonstrate the potential. I don't believe WebHelp is the only answer, just the one that's best known right now.

[RamonS]

Team System and Expression are not part of Vista. I was talking about OS applications bundled with Vista.

[MikeKatz]

I really hope I'm going to embarrass myself here, but here's something that irritates the hell out of me and - if it can't be fixed - may stop DotNet Help in its tracks for us. It's pretty simple: Why the heck is there no obvious way to replace the Viewer window title with the name of my help system, and a way to replace the (or suppress) large "wait for it" MadCap logo that appears when the viewer is called?

Yes, MadCap has a great logo but it's also much, much bigger than any of our own.

It seems to me that the Viewer was designed to be analogous to Adobe Reader (hence no CSH in V1?), rather than be a useful and invisible way to get a help system on screen, or be a stepping stone into integrated help. Truth is, if the viewer doesn't cut it, our developers won't go for the embedded API next time around.

I can tell at a glance which tools were used to build a deliverable, so MadCap doesn't need to do this. Everyone else who has seen the viewer is at best dubious, at worst horrified, so these embedded items simply get in the way of adoption.

I believe MadCap has a real philosophical problem here.

I also don't understand why it's taking so long to release a multilingual version of the Viewer. Is this desire for control getting in the way of getting the job done?

Well, the logo is gone, and the multi-lingual is here - the latter does not affect me personally. So, thanks Madcap!
But, the title window is STILL Madcap Flare, and not the help's window title!

[mikejp]

I've had problems with this download (NOT, I think, down to MadCap in any way), so haven't been able to check this out yet.

If all that's happened is a key language viewer with no splash logo I shall be delighted, since it means I can take this back for our next point release.

Of course other suggestions may not be there. That's OK, at least for now !!

Thanks to Mike for flashing a congratulatory message to MadCap so quickly, and to everyone who's contributed to this thread.

It's really good to know that if we argue a cogent case, MadCap delivers.

[Diane]

I have to say that I am truly impressed at the response to this issue of the MadCap logo with the DotNet help viewer! I just recompiled my help and checked out the 2.5 Viewer. The logo is gone! Thanks so much, MadCap!

I am just starting to use the program for development of a new, very large, help system for our new software. It gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling to know that someone out there is truly listening to what goes on in this forum...and responding!

Thank you!

[Diane]

Now that the logo is gone from the DotNet Help, can I put in a request to get the title bar changeable to our company's help? Or is that already customizable and I just don't know how to do it?

Thanks.

[mikejp]

OK guys, I solved my download problem, and have now installed the new viewer.

Looks to me as if the splash logo is still there, as large as if ever was, and have you tried selecting Help>About? There's no way our team will accept this....

Now off to weep for the lost opportunity, sulk, or (metaphorically) pound my head on a wall somewhere.

Mike, Diane, Anyone: By morning, please tell me you found some way to turn this stuff off....

[MikeKatz]

OK guys, I solved my download problem, and have now installed the new viewer.

Looks to me as if the splash logo is still there, as large as if ever was, and have you tried selecting Help>About? There's no way our team will accept this....

Now off to weep for the lost opportunity, sulk, or (metaphorically) pound my head on a wall somewhere.

Mike, Diane, Anyone: By morning, please tell me you found some way to turn this stuff off....

Did you downloadd the new viewer as well?

[Diane]

I must admit that all I did was open my project in 2.5, recompile, and view it from within the open project. The logo was gone when viewed that way. When I opened the 2.5 Viewer first, the logo is still there.

I am confused now.

[mikejp]

Well, it says V2.5 at the top and asked what language I want (until I deselected that option)!

[RamonS]

I deleted the remains of the 2.0 viewer after uninstall and view the Flare help with the 2.5 view by calling it directly. The logo is still there. I also do not see any obvious way in the target editor on how to switch this off during build. Maybe there was a change that comes into play when calling the help from an application, such as a parameter that can be passed that makes the logo to not show or show something else. Just guessing.....

[MikeKatz]

I tested with my help and with Flare's own help, and I made another test project.

What I DID do is uninstall V2 Flare and V2 Flare Viewer prior to installing 2.5. I don't like have extra versions and files, and 2.5 was defaulting into a different folder.

[Richard Ferrell]

Which Logo are you refering to the Splash Logo On Startup or The Logo on the Background of the Help Viewer if there is no default topic

[Diane]

I just tried this again by deleting my old DotNet help file and recompiling.

When I view it within the open project after compiling, the MadCap splash logo does not appear--good. But, when I go directly into the Output folder and open the DotNet Help file from there, the splash logo appears--not good.

Is there a way to stop this?

[mikejp]

Hi Richard,

It's the splash screen on startup that killed this during evaluation - and I mean stone dead, at first sight, \"Completely unacceptable\" the most printable comment. The Help About animation would have impressed even less, had any evaluator seen it. As for the grayed out 'no topic' logo, we'd rather define our own.

For what it's worth, my experience matches Diane's.

I'm bitterly disappointed that all MadCap's good work on this seems to have been for naught, and my head hurts.

[RamonS]

What is even more interesting is that this debate goes back years and predates Flare's appearance. I recall the long discussions and fruitless attempts to get the RoboHelp Logo removed from the FlashHelp / WebHelp skins. Rick Stone published then a much appreciated hack to take this thing out.

I just don't get why the same people who got the complaints back then apparently still don't understand that stuff like this is just in the way. I'm sure nobody would complain about a one liner in the About box stating \"Created with MadCap Flare\". I think that it might even be OK to show the MadCap logo when it is not intentionally turned off or replaced. But to either take it or leave it....c'mon! The complaints are piling up here for quite some time and some places decide against DotNetHelp because of the splash screen. That is really a silly way to loose business.

[MikeKatz]

OK, I have the same issue.
I agree Ramon, it's just a silly way to lose business. As I said in an earlier thread, why is MadCap making it difficult to move away from RH? They should be doing whatever it takes to make us move.
Once again, this is NOT a hugely complex issue to solve:
Removing the splash screen? 2 minutes
Making the window name the help file's name? 10 minutes
Testing and updating the documentation? 45 minutes
The result - priceless!

[LTinker68]

Back before they added some of the Styles options to the Skin, there was a workaround for replacing the logo graphic and navigation images with your own. Maybe something comparable could be done with the DotNet Help splash screen. I haven't tried this, but maybe replacing the About.bmp file stored at C:\\Program Files\\MadCap Software\\MadCap Help Viewer V2.5\\HelpViewer.app\\Resources\\Images will work (I'm assuming that's the file that's called). I don't know if the size is explicitly stated in the program or if it's pulling it at run-time. If it is, then your splash logo could be any size you wanted. Although I'm stuck trying to figure out how they made a bitmap file transparent -- the background is green, kind of like they're doing a green-screen effect that newscasters do. Don't know how to implement that, so you might have to play with copying that background color into your logo.

[mikejp]

I could not agree with Ramon more.

[brettzalkan]

I just tried this again by deleting my old DotNet help file and recompiling.

When I view it within the open project after compiling, the MadCap splash logo does not appear--good. But, when I go directly into the Output folder and open the DotNet Help file from there, the splash logo appears--not good.

Is there a way to stop this?

I don't see that this question has been answered yet. I'm experiencing the same problem. I don't see any residual bits for Flare 2.0 that are leftover, so if anyone's got steps for getting the 2.5 behavior out of the Help Viewer when opened from the Output folder, I'd really appreciate it.

Also, in 2.5, does the Help Viewer still add a MadCap folder to All Programs when you install it as part of your software? Has anyone actually tested the DotNetHelp viewer when bundled with an actual installation of their product?

Thanks,

Brett

[Marc]

Has there been any movement on this? My developers are beginning to run some tests with embedding my help in our .NET application and the Madcap splashscreen is not getting good reviews. They are working with MadCapHelpViewerApi0303.zip. Is this the correct API?