"Real" quotation marks

[QuadraQ]

I just noticed this when I pasted in some text. Does Flare support real curved opening and closing quotation marks? I'm getting this for some reason:

QuotationMarks.png

I don't see a way to insert these special characters anywhere. Is there a global option for this somewhere?

[doc_guy]

The current version of Flare doesn't support separate open and close quotation marks. Flare is built on an XHTML foundation, and by default XHTML doens't have any support for automatically recognizing and replacing the quote character with the correct curly quote.

This is a feature I've requested. Anybody who wants curly quotes should similarly request it using MadCap's enhancement request form:

https://www.madcapsoftware.com/bugs/sub ... lare&v=4.2

[RamonS]

The named entities “ and ” don't work? That is standard XHTML.

[doc_guy]

The named entities may work, but Flare doesn't magically insert them.

If you open the file in a text editor and insert the named entities, I assume they will work. But there isn't a way to do it in the WYSIWYG editor in Flare, and there certainly isn't some auto-correct method (like Word has or Frame has).

[doc_guy]

Actually, no. Those don't work. If you try to manually add them to the topic, the Flare editor gives you the following error:

---------------------------
MadCap Flare V4.2
---------------------------
Failed to open file C:\SVN\Projects\MyProject\trunk\Content\Help_Topics\Admin\admin_alerts-manager.htm

[XML: Reference to undeclared entity 'ldquo'. Line 10, position 17.]
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

[RamonS]

Now that is a Flare bug, isn't it? I assume there is a numerical entity for these characters, maybe that works better....have to dig a bit.

[JasonSTI]

For a left curly quote, use:

Code: Select all

“

For a right curly quote, use:

Code: Select all

”

But as mentioned, Flare will not automatically insert these.

[Andrew]

You can create snippets of each, after you insert them using a text editor, and then insert those snippets as desired. You could add one of them as the Quick Character on the Insert > Character menu, but that seems like only half a solution.

[doc_guy]

Yeah. The real bug is that Flare should do this automatically, ESPECIALLY for PDF output. Flare's announced-but-not-yet-released sibling, Press, is supposed to compete with page layout programs like InDesign and QuarkXPress, which it can never do if it doesn't do advanced font rendering like curly quotes and ligatures (with the new OpenType fonts).

Due to a limitation in the .NET framework, Flare can't even recognize OpenType fonts that aren't created by Micro$oft, so that is going to be a big problem for Press.

[RamonS]

That is why any new software development should be based on cross-platform frameworks.....unless the way Microsoft does or doesn't do stuff is exactly how you need it to be. In that sense, OpenType fonts are grossly overrated and nobody needs them, which is why Microsoft does not support them.

[Andrew]

That is why any new software development should be based on cross-platform frameworks.....unless the way Microsoft does or doesn't do stuff is exactly how you need it to be. In that sense, OpenType fonts are grossly overrated and nobody needs them, which is why Microsoft does not support them.

Yes, because being cross-platform matters in this context. Java could never have such a bug.

[RamonS]

Who says Java is better? I think it is more a matter of general attitude rather than a specific product. When people put all eggs into the Microsoft basket then I can't understand why they keep on whining about it. If it doesn't cut it, don't use it. But no, people just keep on buying it. In regards to Flare, I strongly advised against settling on DotNet, just because of the vendor / platform lock in, although my recommendation came way too late. The car manufacturers figured out that single vendor strategies don't work. Why on earth are they supposed to work for software?
Coming back to Flare, the fact that the ignorance towards named entities is a bug is known to MadCap, but yet they seem to insist on not fixing it. And the argument that DotNet can't do it is just bad. Why do the customers have to suffer from the developers choosing an insufficient tool?

[doc_guy]

In that sense, OpenType fonts are grossly overrated and nobody needs them, which is why Microsoft does not support them.

Was that serious or sarcastic? There are plenty of cool features in OpenType fonts that aren't available in TrueType fonts, and when you are being really picky about layout, that kind of stuff matters.

[Andrew]

He's being sarcastic.

[doc_guy]

With "RamonS" you never quite know...

[brad friesen]

Back to curly quotes...

You can also use ALT + 0147 to enter an open curly quote and ALT + 0148 to enter a closed curly quote. And let's not forget apostrophes: ALT + 0146

[RamonS]

With "RamonS" you never quite know...

Hehe, well, my point is that if these fonts are really that fundamental to print output and DotNet is the reason why Flare/Blaze cannot handle them then MadCap really made a bad decision to put all eggs into only one basket: Microsoft. I pointed that out to them in Flare V1 alpha, but I was well aware that it was too late by then. Microsoft works better for attracting investors. Nobody would give a dime for a Java or Delphi shop. Microsoft also doesn't make IT folks roll with their eyes. Not because Microsoft is so much better, but Microsoft has high brand recognition (for both good and bad reasons), you find .NET developers on every street corner for cheap, and nobody gets fired for using Microsoft. If that platform can accomplish everything that is needed from it is a question that rarely gets asked. It's like Idiocracry, we use Brawndo for everything, because it has electrolytes.

[NorthEast]

Coming back to Flare, the fact that the ignorance towards named entities is a bug is known to MadCap, but yet they seem to insist on not fixing it.

Yep, I noticed that, Flare only supports the ones it needs to - lt, gt, amp, quot.

[QuadraQ]

For what it's worth I discovered this problem actually stemmed from a font issue (using Times instead of Times New Roman). I checked other Topics I had created and the quotes were OK, they had been pulled over correctly. I've submitted a request to MadCap, because this is absurd. At the very least they should show up in the Insert -> Character menu. I did find a good article on quotation marks on Wikipedia which includes a handy little chart on how to manually type these quotes if needed on Mac, PC, and Linux: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_ ... r_keyboard

[doc_guy]

Yeah. But you shouldn't HAVE to. Flare should just do it automatically. Manually inserting quotes seems ridiculously time consuming -- and more importantly, the software that Flare would like to compete with (i.e. Frame, InDesign, QuarkXPress, etc.) all do this automatically. So Flare should do it automatically. There is no way to gain credibility as page layout tool if you don't provide at least some advanced font features like automatic curly quotes. (Support for all OpenType fonts would be nice too, but that is a different issue for a different post.)

[QuadraQ]

There is no way to gain credibility as page layout tool if you don't provide at least some advanced font features like automatic curly quotes.

Agreed.

[JasonSTI]

Flare's announced-but-not-yet-released sibling, Press, is supposed to compete with page layout programs like InDesign and QuarkXPress, which it can never do if it doesn't do advanced font rendering like curly quotes and ligatures (with the new OpenType fonts).

Due to a limitation in the .NET framework, Flare can't even recognize OpenType fonts that aren't created by Micro$oft, so that is going to be a big problem for Press.

I hadn't heard about Press; we are looking for a replacement for our aging manual-creation software (currently using Corel Ventura), and had considered Blaze. If Press is going to be more like InDesign or Quark, we'd definitely like details. Is this coming to beta soon, or just a long-off concept?

[doc_guy]

That is a good question. You used to be able to find out this info on the MadCap website. However, there is no mention of Press anymore at all. Maybe they've back-burner-ed it, either temporarily or permanently.

[JasonSTI]

Maybe all of the Press features are/will be in Blaze. No real reason for two products if one can do both, right?

[LTinker68]

Which means they'd also be in Flare.