Lacking styles and tags inside DropDown

[i-tietz]

I have just encountered a VERY strange behaviour of Flare (V5):
Whenever the cursor is in an ordinary paragraph (<p>) in the body of a topic I get a long list of styles and tags in the style picker an the the styles window pane.
Whenever that paragraph is inside a DropDown all I get to see in the list is a p ...

We (my colleagues and I) don't get a single headline or a list tag or style ... just a p. That applies to absolutely everything inside a DropDown: I always get the tag the block already has and at most one more (in a table I really get a th in addition to th td!! - Wow!!)
Is this a bug or just a setting in Flare 5 we missed?
How am I supposed to assign a headline format, e. g. h3? Crawl into the source code of the topic each time? One of the colleagues and I are able to do that - for the rest it's impossible, because they don't have enough HTML knowledge.

Anyway: I would really appreciate software producers leave the thinking to me. Automatisms are great - as long as I can switch them off!

[LTinker68]

Is this a bug or just a setting in Flare 5 we missed?

It's been design and has been that way since v1. The Styles pane and drop-down styles list only show styles relevant to the tag you're currently in. If you're in a normal <p> tag, then you'll see paragraph and heading styles. If you're in a list, then you'll see list-related styles. If you highlight text in a paragraph, then you'll see span-related styles.

I don't have Flare open at the moment, so I don't remember what it displays if you're in a drop-down tag, but it seems like it would be the same as the paragraph/heading list, unless it was a list that you had put into the drop-down. It might be easier to set the styles in the content before putting the content inside the drop-down tag.

The reason the Styles pane and drop-down styles list are context-sensitive in this way is so that you don't have to scroll through a loooong list of possible styles every time you want to select one.

So if you're in a paragraph and want to see list-related styles, you have to click the list icon to start a list, then you see related styles. If you're in a list and want to see paragraph styles, then you either turn off (terminate) the list or you click the list actions icon and select "Make Paragraph Item" that will give you the ability to insert a paragraph inside the list item, at which point you see paragraph styles.

[KevinDAmery]

One tip for this type of thing: apply the formatting to the topic first, then create the dropdown. I find this works easier than trying to format the contents of the dropdown after it's in place.

[i-tietz]

... but it seems like it would be the same as the paragraph/heading list, unless it was a list that you had put into the drop-down.

No, it's not a list.

It might be easier to set the styles in the content before putting the content inside the drop-down tag.

And what, if I work with snippets and templates including dropdowns? The snippets will be inserted, converted to text and changed in each topic. The templates will be used the normal way and that means: Changed drastically.

We are working with snippets and templates - both including dropdowns:
- That saves precious time.
- That leads to topics of the same sort looking alike ...

How else are we supposed to do that?

The reason the Styles pane and drop-down styles list are context-sensitive in this way is so that you don't have to scroll through a loooong list of possible styles every time you want to select one.

I know why that mechanism is there - and I already said it: I like automatisms, as long as I can switch them off, if they don't meet my requirements.

So if you're in a paragraph and want to see list-related styles, you have to click the list icon to start a list, then you see related styles. If you're in a list and want to see paragraph styles, then you either turn off (terminate) the list or you click the list actions icon and select "Make Paragraph Item" that will give you the ability to insert a paragraph inside the list item, at which point you see paragraph styles.

That's also another mechanism that I should be able to switch off. Why not start lists that way? Because somebody in LaJolla decides it never occurs? What's so difficult about leaving the decision to the user? Just leave the mechanism in for the users that would like to use it and give the others a chance to get "a loooong list of possible styles", if they feel like or need it.
I don't see, why that's so difficult.

Right now I'm fighting the same fight in my own department. We are working on a new help concept. And every now and then a colleague finds the rules to strict, wants more liberty of decision. Then everything I say is: "We must not make decisions for the user. We don't know what he considers 'important'. Just give the info, preferably always in the same place an in the same way, and let him decide whether he reads it."

[LTinker68]

It might be easier to set the styles in the content before putting the content inside the drop-down tag.

And what, if I work with snippets and templates including dropdowns? The snippets will be inserted, converted to text and changed in each topic. The templates will be used the normal way and that means: Changed drastically.

We are working with snippets and templates - both including dropdowns:
- That saves precious time.
- That leads to topics of the same sort looking alike ...

How else are we supposed to do that?

I'm not sure what you're saying. The snippets contain the drop-down or the drop-down contains a snippet?

The reason the Styles pane and drop-down styles list are context-sensitive in this way is so that you don't have to scroll through a loooong list of possible styles every time you want to select one.

I know why that mechanism is there - and I already said it: I like automatisms, as long as I can switch them off, if they don't meet my requirements.

Submit a feature request. If MadCap gets a lot of interest then they'll add the ability.

So if you're in a paragraph and want to see list-related styles, you have to click the list icon to start a list, then you see related styles. If you're in a list and want to see paragraph styles, then you either turn off (terminate) the list or you click the list actions icon and select "Make Paragraph Item" that will give you the ability to insert a paragraph inside the list item, at which point you see paragraph styles.

That's also another mechanism that I should be able to switch off. Why not start lists that way?

Because not every list needs to contain paragraphs and why have extra empty tags? I could have a 10 step list and only two or three of them need paragraphs inside them. So you either have a standard list and occasionally enable an item to contain a paragraph, or you have list items that all have paragraphs and if you don't put text in the paragraph then you have to delete the tags manually. Either way, there is a step you have to take, but it's generally better to take a step to add functionality than to remove functionality (tags) that you don't need.

Right now I'm fighting the same fight in my own department. We are working on a new help concept. And every now and then a colleague finds the rules to strict, wants more liberty of decision.

You could say that about any program, but even in your program you have to make choices about what to include and what not, what to make strict and what not, and so on. Just because it's not useful as it is to you doesn't mean it isn't useful to someone else. And of course, some of the "strictness" Flare enforces is due to HTML/XML rules and so on, so some things they can't change.

MadCap is pretty responsive, so you can always submit a feature request and see if they'll add the features you want.

[i-tietz]

I get from the answer that it's not setting I can change ... means: Bug.

[KevinDAmery]

So if you're in a paragraph and want to see list-related styles, you have to click the list icon to start a list, then you see related styles. If you're in a list and want to see paragraph styles, then you either turn off (terminate) the list or you click the list actions icon and select "Make Paragraph Item" that will give you the ability to insert a paragraph inside the list item, at which point you see paragraph styles.

That's also another mechanism that I should be able to switch off. Why not start lists that way?

Because not every list needs to contain paragraphs and why have extra empty tags? I could have a 10 step list and only two or three of them need paragraphs inside them. So you either have a standard list and occasionally enable an item to contain a paragraph, or you have list items that all have paragraphs and if you don't put text in the paragraph then you have to delete the tags manually. Either way, there is a step you have to take, but it's generally better to take a step to add functionality than to remove functionality (tags) that you don't need.

Plus, remember that in HTML the list type is defined by the the OL / UL tags. So if you're in a paragraph and you want to just switch it to a list, you can't just apply an Li style because it won't know what type of list tags to wrap around it. It's not like Word or Frame where the numbering or bulleting is defined in the style itself. As Lisa mentioned, you still have to follow XML / HTML rules.

[i-tietz]

Plus, remember that in HTML the list type is defined by the the OL / UL tags. So if you're in a paragraph and you want to just switch it to a list, you can't just apply an Li style because it won't know what type of list tags to wrap around it. It's not like Word or Frame where the numbering or bulleting is defined in the style itself. As Lisa mentioned, you still have to follow XML / HTML rules.

1. That's why I wrote "start a list" and not "enter an ol tag" ...
2. There is an XHTML rule that doesn't allow headers to occur in dropdowns? Or horizontal rulers (hr) in topics? Or paragraphs in table cells? Or ...

I understand all the reasons why MadCap reduces the list - it's a waste of time to tell me again and again. And I'm not asking to kick that feature out.
All I'm saying is: Those reasons don't apply to us and we are not left with an alternative but to crawl into the source code and change it manually - that's bad style and is making especially those of my colleagues very angry who are not familiar with HTML, because they feel overextended. The software they worked with for years are RH and Word ... they don't want to look at the innards of a software, they just want to use it. And I think that is a legitimate claim coming from software users.

[LTinker68]

2. There is an XHTML rule that doesn't allow headers to occur in dropdowns? Or horizontal rulers (hr) in topics? Or paragraphs in table cells? Or ...

The drop-downs aren't XHTML rules, per se -- they're functionality that MadCap wrote into the program and that is XHTML-compliant. There are a bunch of Javascript scripts out there that can do drop-down type functionality -- Flare just includes it without you having to go out and add it to the project.

I take it that you're not able to do any of those things you want in your drop-downs? I think the problem is the scope of the drop-down (i.e., what it can be applied to). I don't use drop-downs, but don't they only work on the single block tag (<p>, <div>, <hr>, etc.) immediately following the drop-down head? So if you had a rule followed by a paragraph, only the rule would show up because that's the first block tag after the drop-down head.

If I'm remembering that correctly, then you have two options. First, before creating the drop-down effect, you put all the elements you want revealed into a DIV or blockquote container tag. (I don't think the <hr> tag can be inside a <p> tag, so it may not be able to go inside the <blockquote> tag either, but I'm pretty sure you can put it in a <div> tag.)

The second option is to not use the drop-down functionality at all -- use togglers instead. Togglers will reveal/hide as many (block) elements as you want, so long as you've named them and selected all those names when you created the toggler. This is the method I use instead of drop-downs. Togglers just seem more flexible to me.

[KevinDAmery]

I don't use drop-downs, but don't they only work on the single block tag (<p>, <div>, <hr>, etc.) immediately following the drop-down head? So if you had a rule followed by a paragraph, only the rule would show up because that's the first block tag after the drop-down head.

No, you can put more than that in a dropdown. I have put several paragraphs in them before, lists, that sort of thing (although I've never tried a heading - in my case, it never semantically made sense for a heading to be in the sections of the document that I placed in a dropdown). However, Flare does severely restrict the styles that are available in the XML editor when you're inside a dropdown, which is why I normally complete the topic and its formatting first before adding the dropdown to it (the styles work inside the dropdown, but you can't apply them there). If I need to do some format surgery later, I'll unbind the dropdown, make the changes, then recreate it - I find that quicker than jumping into a text editor.

[i-tietz]

However, Flare does severely restrict the styles that are available in the XML editor when you're inside a dropdown, ...

Why?
Once I did the "surgery" (nice term that ) Flare hasn't got problems with it - it even correctly builds it in the help ... so why prevent it?

[KevinDAmery]

However, Flare does severely restrict the styles that are available in the XML editor when you're inside a dropdown, ...

Why?
Once I did the "surgery" (nice term that ) Flare hasn't got problems with it - it even correctly builds it in the help ... so why prevent it?

That would be a question for La Jolla....

[i-tietz]

No good news for Flare V6 ...

I examined the way out with togglers, but with togglers it's a lot of work for my colleagues:
1. Insert the snippet
2. Convert it to text
3. Select the DIV (via the DIV block)
4. Call Format | Name and change the name of the DIV.
5. Place cursor in the toggler
6. Call "Edit toggler" (via context menu) and change the named element it calls.

And all that for EACH SNIPPET they insert!!
And our concept means: A lot of snippets per topic - right now I have quite a few topics with about 20 dropdowns ...

With dropdowns it's a lot easier to handle for them:
1. Insert the snippet
2. Convert it to text

...